31 | Jon Fitch | MMA Corruption, Wrestling Origins, and Conspiracy Theories | "Everyone Else Is Pimping Us Out"

Get ready for a rollercoaster ride as we delve into the gritty history of catch wrestling’s origin and inevitable transformation into modern MMA. This episode promises a whirlwind of fascinating insights and unexpected twists with UFC legend Jon Fitch.

What if the world of MMA is more corrupt than we ever imagined? Shady promoters, fixed fights, and the ongoing struggle for fighters’ rights take center stage as we dissect the impact of corruption in combat sports. We spotlight the landmark lawsuit aimed at reforming MMA practices and the critical role of the Ali Expansion Act in protecting fighters' rights. Jon Fitch joins us to share his hard-fought battles with promoter influence, offering a candid look at his career and his continued advocacy through his shows, "John Fitch Knows Nothing" and "Loose Change."

We explore the rise of government distrust, the disillusionment with the financial system, and the tumultuous world of cryptocurrency. From UFO sightings and ghost encounters to the provocative idea of controlled opposition, we tackle it all. We even entertain the notion of interdimensional beings influencing our world and challenge listeners to think critically. Connect with us on social media, share your thoughts, and support the show for more mind-bending discussions that challenge the status quo!

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Chapters

• 1:24 Our Guest Jon Fitch
• 4:17 Combat Sports Corruption and Reformation
• 10:34 MMA Fighter Struggles With Promoter Influence
• 16:03 [Ad] The Latin Minute
• 16:48 (Cont.) MMA Fighter Struggles With Promoter Influence
• 24:16 Beliefs, Conspiracy Theories, and Occult
• 29:07 Controversial Beliefs and Skepticism
• 37:44 Conspiracy Theories and Aliens
• 50:45 Conspiracy and Chill

Transcript

"$awbuck" Mike: 0:01

The Nephilim sightings are going to start soon.

"Headhunter" Higgins: 0:04

Consciousness has been enslaved.

Jon Fitch: 0:06

Your consciousness does not need your physical body to survive.

"$awbuck" Mike: 0:11

It's the thing that's necessary. It has to be there. It's the coding that projects this world we currently live in. I want you to read the Bible.

Jon Fitch: 0:19

We got reptilians just outside of our frequency zone.

"$awbuck" Mike: 0:22

Six dimensional beings, the ancient builder race. Ideas are the highest form of intelligence, and that leads you to truth and clarity. The Nephilim sightings are going to stall soon. Conspiracy show. It's obvious. The aliens are god-fearing, insanely huge, or just one planet. They would have needed a minimum of six feet of lead shielding in order to get through the 25,000 mile thick of nl and radiation belt. This is real. They really did fake the moon. The world is infinitely older than that, and I mean the world with human beings in it, skull and bones is like one of the villains in the legion of doom, they said.

"Headhunter" Higgins: 0:57

I'll let you read the bible the biblical flood, the tartaria mud flood conspiracy and chill the nephilim sightings are going to start soon.

"$awbuck" Mike: 1:05

The bulldog ball. I don't want you to read the bible.

"Headhunter" Higgins: 1:08

There's magnets in the basketballs. There was a political party, a third party called the anti-masonic party, at a point in uh in the united states, the global pandemic treaty conspiracy and chill podcast I like the long hair mustache. Look too, gotta say yeah, I just.

Jon Fitch: 1:28

I spent like three years. I just keep growing it. I don't know what to do with it.

"Headhunter" Higgins: 1:32

Girlfriend likes it, so looks like you could go straight into some pro wrestling. Any plans on that?

"$awbuck" Mike: 1:37

no, he's not a pro wrestling fan yeah, I'm not.

Jon Fitch: 1:41

I was just listening to uh to you rant about pro wrestling how you uh watch the iron claw, but yeah, not your cup of tea origins of catch wrestling and they make some claims about, uh, one of the kick, uh, the catch wrestling legends, training maeda, who, who later went to the gracies. So they're kind of claiming that catcher gracies actually just stole a catch wrestling, they just put a gi on and they renamed all this stuff. Did you do catch wrestling too? I I've never officially done catch wrestling but, you know, as a fighter, like if it hurts and it works, of course you know there's plenty of things that, uh, I I've come up with or I do or use that aren't necessarily things that are traditionally taught in in jiu jitsu. Right, yeah, but um, yeah, catch is a very like top dominant controlling type style, but it was also built off of professionals traveling and fighting hobos take on all comers. So, like you know, the uh, the boston crab could work on on somebody who's never done anything in Dana's life, you know that is hilarious.

"Headhunter" Higgins: 3:07

That's actually what I was in California for. I've been competing lately in catch wrestling and I was with Eric Paulson and Josh Burnett it was Josh Burnett's tournament and a bunch of dudes from England and actually a lot of the people that were there and like competing and training were pro wrestlers primarily and they're trying to like get more into the real roots of the grappling, I guess no, it's super interesting, um, the history of it and I get it.

Jon Fitch: 3:32

um, because you know these guys, it'd be like me, like I'm gonna go make some money, so I'm gonna go on the train and I'm gonna travel, and every stop I'm gonna, me and my friends are gonna challenge the best guys in the land and they're going to place bets.

Jon Fitch: 3:47

And I can't just go out there and smash everybody, because then nobody else will want to challenge me and nobody will place any bets. So they would go and they would just play with these guys oh, you've got my arm, oh, and they'd get out of it and then they'd put them in a lock and then they'd give something up and they out of it, and then they put them in a lock and then they give something up and they'd make it look like a close fight and then, when it was time to like get out of there, then they would win real quick and take the money and go. So I mean, it makes sense, I get it. There's a carny grifter vibe to it and there's a realness to it. But when you I don't know, when you start fixing things that are sold as a legitimate sporting competition, that starts bothering me. That's right. I feel like it deflates. It deflates real fight competition.

"Headhunter" Higgins: 4:34

it lets it lets too many bad elements, too many bad promoters and shady promoters get in there and pull strings 100, I agree, and with the first version of them doing that would been like, yeah, you're beating everybody's ass and then you have your buddy who's with you is also a wrestler in the crowd and you have someone bet on him and he steps up and pretends to be a random nobody and then he beats your ass like save some traveler.

Jon Fitch: 4:54

And then, yeah, you get a close, make a good fight, you put on a good show, and then you guys meet up out of town and have beers yeah, you gotta think how awesome that would have been back then to be one of those guys though that's a way to make a living right you know all about shady promoters, right, oh man it's, uh, it's in their blood, it's in their

"Headhunter" Higgins: 5:13

blood. It's just the intermediary to take the money away from the fighters. You know, instead of just going right to the actual competitor, there's a middleman. Then well, the promoter.

Jon Fitch: 5:23

The promoter is supposed to work for the athlete. That's how it's supposed to work, right? Because your job as the athlete is to fight. Your job is to fight and win. That's it. It's their job to make sure everybody knows who the hell you are. It's their job to be loud and and promote you and and do the advertising for you. That way you can focus on training. You shouldn't have to be like yelling in a megaphone on a soapbox telling people about your fight yourself, which is exactly what they expect you to do today in mma. Right? Just look at, uh, the difference. Like I follow, like mayweather boxing and you know you can follow the ufc and like I just feel like Mayweather does a better job of pushing their guys out there than the UFC does. It feels more like UFC and MMA promotions use the fighters' names to build their own brand rather than actually cheering on the athlete and hyping the athlete up.

"$awbuck" Mike: 6:24

I was just telling uh tom here before we went live. Uh, I think the first time I spoke with you, john, was like in 2016, and you had already been involved in the lawsuit for a few years, and I just think it's so cool, man, that here we are in 2024 and it's finally resolved, and not many people thought you would, you would come out on top and you did and you persevered, and I just think that's fucking awesome, dude yeah, it was.

Jon Fitch: 6:53

Uh, you know it's. It's important that people remember it's only one part of a three-pronged attempt to like change the way that mma has done in this industry. Uh, one is one is the lawsuit, because that's how other sports uh achieved their free agency and, uh um, their collective bargaining agreements either through lawsuits or through, uh, threat of lawsuits. Right, that that's how. That's how all the other big sports became the big sports and started making the money. The athletes started making the money they're making because the government stepped in. They had to sue or had to threaten the lawsuit. So we still have to encourage fighters to join the Fighters Association, the MMAFA. Be active in that. Be active in that. If we can get everybody to sign up and pledge allegiance to the Fighters Association, we can start having votes and making decisions on what things we want to do and how we want to run things. We need to realize that we're only going to take care of each other because everybody else is pimping us out, like the managers, the coaches, the promoters themselves. They will stay in business. We only have a short time to compete and make money, you know, uh. And then we also uh need to get guys together to help push and promote the ali act. We need the ali expansion act. We need to get the same uh legal protections that boxers get from promoters. You know, there's no reason why we shouldn't have those same protections that they get.

Jon Fitch: 8:31

Do you still follow the sport like? Do you still watch fights? I, I do my show john fish knows nothing um, every sunday night at seven on the left coast, and that's uh where I watch whatever violence I can on the weekend, a lot of bare knuckles events, um, I did watch karate combat not long ago. Sometimes the boxing events we had we had canelo and lomachenko fighting um relatively recently. So you know I'm always watching something and then I talk about it on the show. And I started doing another uh show on wednesday nights called loose change, and it's just a continuation of my other podcast show because sometimes during the week other things happen and pop up worth talking about. So I'll talk about whatever weird thing popped up in the middle of the week.

"$awbuck" Mike: 9:13

Loose Change. Do you remember that documentary about the Twin Towers? It was called Loose Change, wasn't it? That's what it reminded me of.

"Headhunter" Higgins: 9:21

That's immediately what came to mind too. I was going to say, though, though, john, that you're the perfect guest for this show, because, like me being a grappler and a martial artist and mike being mma journalist, and we've had that crossover with a lot of fighters and the conspiracy aspect, but, like, your career kind of has a conspiracy to it, like even before the the whole lawsuit, because you're, you know, on a great win streak, you're a top contender for the longest time the career pivot of what happened to me like from uh.

Jon Fitch: 9:51

I basically had two, two careers. I had pre uh contract dispute and post contract dispute. Right, pre-contact dispute was uh, all my fights leading up to gsp, the gsp fight and a short time after that, right. And then we had the video game dispute and then I went from the next greatest thing you know I was 8-0 going into the fight with GSP. So I was 8-1 with four finishes. Everybody thought I was, you know, great and loved watching me fight. I headlined stuff and whatever.

Jon Fitch: 10:26

And then contract dispute and then, oh, he's not very good, he's boring, he's not entertaining, nobody wants to watch him fight. They stopped even interviewing me after fights just because they know If you want to build notoriety and a base of fans, they need to hear you talk, they need to see you after the fight, they need to get a human element of you after the fight. So if you're just rushed off the cage after your fight I noticed they've done it to a few guys too where they don't, they don't interview them after the after the fight. That's, that's not an accident, it has nothing to do with timing. Or? Oh, it's not an accident, it has nothing to do with timing or oh, we don't have enough time to fit all the fights in Bullshit. They have enough time. They have enough time to do two, three minute interview. Talk to somebody. They choose not to take that time because they don't want people to get to know that fighter. They don't want that guy to be identifiable.

"Headhunter" Higgins: 11:24

They don't want anybody to start liking that guy because of something he says 100% and you think it arose from, you said, the video game contract or some dispute over your likeness.

Jon Fitch: 11:32

Essentially I said no to them, and I said no to them a few times because there was video game agreement, the merchandising agreement that was shit too. And then them trying to make me fight Kostchek for a non-title uh fight. So I was just like no, like I never looked at them as like oh my god, you're the boss, you're so amazing. Like I thank you for the opportunities, but you're they're just another promoter. Like who? Who gives a shit. Like there'll be other promotions. There's always other promotions. There are other places to go and make money that were just as big or bigger back then. So like I was like who is this guy? Like who are you? I never understood the people who you know. Kind of get on their knees for these people, right? You're the show. Like that's why they use your name on the marquee. You're the show, not the promoter. The promoter really isn't that material. It doesn't matter as much. Most people will never remember who the promoters are.

"Headhunter" Higgins: 12:33

They were just upset. You didn't want to play ball the way they did and fighting against the system.

Jon Fitch: 12:37

Yep, I said no to them and that's bad, because then other people see, oh, he's telling us, no, that's not okay, we got to deal with this. That whole thing, that whole video game agreement thing, that like they didn't contact me, they contacted the press, they canceled my contract because I wouldn't sign. And then they went to the press and said, yeah, we cut John Fitch and these guys because, no, we cut John Fitch because he's not, he doesn't make me in Kasha, because they're not signing the video gaming agreement. They put that on the press Like, why, why wouldn't you call us? Why wouldn't you like work with our managers? Why wasn't there communication in any way? They just went straight to the press.

Jon Fitch: 13:18

So I woke up to my newsfeed like I lost my job. I'm like what the hell is going on? You know, I think that's not an accident, that's strategic. They know what they're doing. And, sure enough, after that, like you know, I I was going to leave and, uh, go to strike force. I was finally fighting for strike force at the time. Like I said, there was places to go. They got mad at that because I was demonstrating that I could say no to them and continue to fight and make money, so they threatened to cut all of my teammates everybody from aka there's whoa everybody from aka and everybody who was represented by my management was seeking entertainment, so that means they're.

Jon Fitch: 13:57

You know they would have cut cane if you lost that. There wouldn't have been a dc, there wouldn't have been a rock hold like that. That was what they were telling me. So I was like, fine, right, I don't want to be a problem, I'll just, I'll just sign the sign, the. There wouldn't have been a DC, there wouldn't have been a Rockhold Like that was what they were telling me. So I was like, fine, right, I don't want to be a problem, I'll just sign the stupid video game thing. Whatever, I'm going to win my next fights and win the title, and then you're going to kiss my ass. That was my mindset. But yeah, like that was a big, strong attack. And everybody who saw that, like all the signatures poured in after that little event, that little stunt.

"Headhunter" Higgins: 14:30

It worked 100 dude. It's got to be so frustrating to, I mean, do everything right, be a top contender, dominate all your fights, essentially like, put all your hard work to use and what you think is you know a legitimate sport, at least as far as other sports go. You have pretty much full control over your destiny. You trained your. You know a legitimate sport, at least as far as other sports go. You have pretty much full control over your destiny. You trained your best. You get to control the outcome. It's an individual sport and then to still get you know blacklisted and not get the title shot or have it, you know, taken from you. Are you familiar with Bilal Muhammad?

Jon Fitch: 15:00

That's what I was going to say oh yeah, they're giving him that treatment right now.

"Headhunter" Higgins: 15:04

A hundred percent. That's one of my guys, one of my friends and training partners this past weekend he's getting heat from winning his fight, like, come on, he's fighting a giant striker.

Jon Fitch: 15:17

You're mad at him because he used MMA, he used mixed martial arts. He used a mixed martial arts to gain an advantage. I don't understand these people. Uh, one fc, one championships, one championships has small glove muay thai, small glove, muay thai, bare knuckles exists. Like, why are you guys wasting your time watching mma? I don't get it at all. It's like I'm gonna start going to tennis matches and be like boo use your feet, kick the ball, you suck. Make it make sense to me. I've never understood that. I've never understood that. You know I don't particularly like most of this sport, but I want to still watch it for the tiny piece that I like and then complain about all the stuff that doesn't fit that tiny aspect that I like.

"Headhunter" Higgins: 16:41

That is a funny analogy with the tennis one. But you're, you're right. They could watch something else if they don't like the grappling.

"$awbuck" Mike: 16:46

That is the point of mixed martial arts it's to a point now where there's sometimes when a guy will have a takedown and side control and they'll separate them and stand them up.

Jon Fitch: 16:57

But it's like he worked so hard to get that position and because he he might not have moved in 10 seconds, you're gonna, it's because fan pressure, you know so a lot of people are so clueless about, um, the skill set of fighters today they think the fighters today are so advanced over guys 20 years ago, 30 years ago no bullshit, right. I've been watching fights from the 90s, okay, the nineties. I was watching this like a clash of champions nine or something like that. It's from 1990. They filmed it in Southern California.

Jon Fitch: 17:29

Right, it was four man tournament. They had one 55, 70 something, 85 heavyweight and it was no close fist to the to the face, right, but they could kick to the face, they could leg kick takedowns, full submissions on the ground, just no punching to the face. You could hit to the body, you could elbow to the body, you could headbutt to the body, just no punches to the face. These guys were skilled. They were throwing big kicks, body kicks, kicks to the legs, hitting takedowns, working submissions. They knew some ground hitting takedowns, working submissions. They knew some ground. There's been a false narrative told to people about the ufc origin and the great season, all this, all this stuff. Right, there were lots of guys who could have probably won that first ufc tournament easily, but they were not allowed to compete yep there wasn't even a real wrestler in the first few there was.

Jon Fitch: 18:21

I can't remember who the guy was. There was a guy who was on the Olympic ladder as a wrestler, a judokan, and he had trained boxing for some years. That was somebody that they were trying to get into those early UFC's and they were just like would not because he was too good, too advanced. There's a lot of I don't know. I've been surfing just a lot of I don't know. There, there I've been, I've been surfing just a lot of old, old fights.

Jon Fitch: 18:44

Gracie fighting championships in 2007 right, they did in. Like columbus ohio. Like matt brown, jack array there's a bunch of fights on that part. It was. It was pretty great and the skills of the guys fighting were pretty damn good. Like I wouldn't. I wouldn't say that, uh, your average ufc fighter would, would have beaten any of those guys in that, in that, uh, in that card. You know, like solid people, good, stand up. I actually kind of think the fighters a lot of them have gotten watered down with their skill sets because they're starting to become jacks of all trades. Right, they know a little bit of everything, but they have never specialized and dominated in any one thing, any one field. Sorry, I got a little fucking bugs in here.

"Headhunter" Higgins: 19:33

Look like a crazy guy well, you're on the crazy guy podcast, that's for sure.

Jon Fitch: 19:40

So yeah, I mean, I don't know. Just I think there's something a little bit missing. And then I think there's a lot of that attitude of just getting clout chasing and just being popular, like I'm just going to, people are going to know me, I'm going to get knocked out real bad. And people are going to know me, me like there's not really a desire to actually fight, they just want to be seen. I don't know, because you remember, man, back 90s, early 2000s, guys are traveling all over, sometimes out of pocket, to fight for 100 bucks, 500 bucks. Yeah, I've driven hundreds of miles to fight for 250. How many guys are still doing that today?

"Headhunter" Higgins: 20:24

There's a lot more heart and passion in like I don't know what to call it. I guess the zufa era like the height of your career kind of time, like when there wasn't fights every single weekend and the pay-per-views was like a much more big deal. And they were, they were stacked and, like you said, the guys were more specialized in their styles. It made for interesting matchups. I I don't think I'm just being nostalgic by saying that era was way more entertaining and awesome. It really just was. I miss it. It's the same yeah, yeah, yeah.

"$awbuck" Mike: 20:53

I like watching highlights and, and instantly, if I see sponsors on shorts, I know it's, I know it's going to be, you know, a good fight, and there's no way that you can tell me that boss rutin, uh, frank shamrock, guy, metzger dan severin, you can't tell me those guys weren't fucking talented Yep.

Jon Fitch: 21:12

Yep, marco Huas. I want to go back. I'm going to try to find it, but I'm going to go back and watch the Pride Light Heavyweight Grand Prix. Oh yeah, remember that. Hell yeah, if any of you guys, listeners back home, have never seen that dude, go do that. Go watch. It was just a bunch of killers.

"Headhunter" Higgins: 21:34

Every fight was crazy literally and to kind of swing things in a different direction during your career. Uh, obviously we kind of went over the lawsuit and the shady like blackball and stuff. But do you have any maybe crazy or unexplainable, just kind of wild moments behind the scenes, man?

Jon Fitch: 21:51

I don't know if I have anything in particular that really reminds me off the top of my head.

"Headhunter" Higgins: 21:56

What was your favorite place? You got to go fight.

Jon Fitch: 22:00

Well, yeah, best trip was definitely Brazil. I had a Rio card recently and I got to fight down in Rio too, and that was great. That was Bonner Silva. I fought Eric Silva down there, the fight down in rio too, and that was that was great. That was bonner silva, uh, but eric silva down there and I I stayed a little extra. You know, I got, I got there a little early and I stayed a little extra. I got to go and see the big jesus statue and the big, the big uh mountain with the cable car thing and, um, this is awesome. Man, the food was crazy, beaches were awesome. Just great, great night of fights.

"Headhunter" Higgins: 22:34

I'm sure that was badass, it was pretty spectacular.

Jon Fitch: 22:38

We like went into right on the edge like the Amazon. We went kind of inland for a couple days and I just one more, like it was like a few days after the fight wake up, have my Brazilian coffee. It's kind of like I gritty and then smoke a joint, have my coffee and I'm looking at this giant forest and mountain it was freaking crazy dude. Hell yeah the forest washing. They talk about forest bathing. Oh yeah, it's a real thing.

"Headhunter" Higgins: 23:08

Go out barefoot grounded. Yeah, Were you smoking your whole career because I never would have took you as a stoner back in the day.

Jon Fitch: 23:17

Uh, yeah, pretty much. Pretty much, um, it was. You know, once I got to california, it was just the best way to pain and and get some rest and sleep and that is the way I could have a little bit of fun and not go out drinking and partying or do whatever and not popping pills. Around 2011, I started having like neck issues and I started using that to really help with pain relief and stuff. I had a friend that OD'd, eric Ray. He was a fighter. He OD'd like in in 2005 from opiates and I just wanted to stay away from from pills. Like even when I had my shoulder surgery, like I didn't take any pain pills, I just mostly just smoked nice then.

"Headhunter" Higgins: 24:04

Uh, it should be an easy segue then. Maybe not on the fighting side. But is there any just crazier things that you believe or you get into that some people might not know that you believe in, or conspiracies, ghosts, anything. Any experiences?

Jon Fitch: 24:19

personal if you've been watching my timelines for, I mean, I've been a skeptic of the government for a very long time. You know, I studied history in college. Um, I've been paying attention, uh, politically. I kind of tuned out at, uh, 2001, like weapons of mass destruction. I was like y'all lying, this, is this some horse shit? Like I ain't paying attention to this shit. And then, uh, I was forced into paying attention to politics in 2008 with the financial crisis and I purchased a home. So, my, my house went deep under. That pissed me off and that led me to ron paul, right and uh, and a sound monetary system and understanding that that the us.

Jon Fitch: 25:05

We've been going through an economic collapse since the 70s. Right, we, we're like the titanic. When the titanic hit the iceberg, it didn't sink like in the first hour. It took like a really long time for anybody to even know that it was sinking. Well, I think, I think people are starting to notice there's water now. I think we hit the iceberg in the 70s and we're just, we just started taking all our now. Maybe, maybe we hit the iceberg in 1913. The Federal Reserve, maybe that's when we first hit the iceberg. But things got really bad in the 70s, when we decoupled from gold, and now we're just printing money like crazy. So I was telling people to buy Bitcoin back in 2014. I was even sending people Bitcoin through Twitter. There was an app thing that they were trying to promote and you could be like here's a beer on me and it would send you $3.50 worth of Bitcoin, and today that's probably like $350 or something, because of how much Bitcoin was back then.

"Headhunter" Higgins: 26:15

Yeah, I'm not a crypto guy by any means. I probably should have got on that a long time ago.

Jon Fitch: 26:20

It's still early because if there's ever going to be 21 million made, there's not that many to go around and all the institutional investors are kind of buy up as much Bitcoin as they can as a hedge for inflation. I would definitely. I'm not a financial advisor, in any means. That's not financial advice. But diversity, I think, is good in your money A little bit of Bitcoin, a little bit of silver, a little bit of gold, some stocks I think it is not a bad idea yeah, we, we know they control things in a nuts and bolts type of way against us, but what are your thoughts on?

Jon Fitch: 27:01

uh, maybe more spiritual or behind the scenes or hidden hand type of occult type of shit you know it's hard for me to believe that there is any organized, super organized cult of satanists doing anything right? Do I think there's some uh depraved and sick people who uh kind of open themselves up to evil or demons? I guess, guess, and you know people like Diddy, people like Epstein and the people who operate them. I think there are. You know people out there that do that stuff. But I think you're getting too deep in the weeds. If you're thinking it's a, it's a death cult, or you know they're sacrificing babies, I think it's a step too far.

"$awbuck" Mike: 27:51

We're pretty deep in the weeds around here. Do you think we went to the mean I?

Jon Fitch: 27:55

know I do a show at jason burmess. He actually was, uh, one of the producers of that loose change documentary. Oh, wow, um, and we, we talk a lot of conspiracy stuff and trans, the transgenderism and transgender imperative and and all that stuff and I just I always go back to the same thing and it's people are kind of stupid and they make a lot of mistakes and they're really egotistical and they run their mouths and it's really hard for me to believe that people are that good at keeping secrets. You know, I really it's really hard for me to believe that people are that good at keeping secrets and I think there's plenty of people who are manipulating things for power and money.

Jon Fitch: 28:38

But I don't know if, like that, I don't think I, it's hard for me to think that, yeah, we're, we're going to like sacrifice the baby and do weird sex orgy stuff Cause we're so rich, we're bored, or whatever. I X orgy stuff because we're so rich, we're bored, or whatever. I, I, I don't know. It seems like for me, like the whole um, bohemian Grove, I think it's a psyop.

"Headhunter" Higgins: 28:59

I think Alex.

Jon Fitch: 29:00

Jones works for them works for the government controlled up yep, controlled opposition.

Jon Fitch: 29:05

I believe, uh, because that that's one thing I do believe. I think there are very powerful people who can limit reach. Right, they can turn down your antenna, they can. They can make less people see your posts. They, because that's one thing I do believe I think there are very powerful people who can limit reach. They can turn down your antenna. They can make less people see your posts. They can make less people see you. They cannot give as much attention to you. In my opinion, anybody who's actually getting blasted and getting a lot of attention, it's manufactured. Somebody got a hook in them somewhere because they could just flip the switch, and that guy's manufactured. Somebody got a hook at him somewhere because they could just flip the switch, and that guy's gone.

"Headhunter" Higgins: 29:35

Yeah, I tend to agree.

Jon Fitch: 29:37

They don't have to tolerate the powerful people, the rich people. If Hillary Clinton really has all these body counts, why would they let Joe Rogan keep running his mouth?

"Headhunter" Higgins: 29:47

Yeah, info's on me. Why would?

Jon Fitch: 29:48

Alex Jones, why wouldn't he have gotten in a drunk driving accident a long time ago?

"Headhunter" Higgins: 29:54

Only pushed as hard as they'll allow it to. You don't want to gain as much traction as they push.

Jon Fitch: 29:59

You know, even, like, yeah, even the Sandy Hook stuff. I think all that it's one big sigh out. I think they set them up to say those things and now everybody's talking about this stuff. And not the monetary system collapsing, collapsing not the wars in other countries, not poverty and the homeless people. None of those things get talked about.

"$awbuck" Mike: 30:18

Everybody's talking about this crazy one of my favorite ones is the moon. Do you think we went to the moon?

Jon Fitch: 30:25

man I don't think so I used to, I used to really believe, but, but it's too much time has passed. It makes zero sense. It makes zero sense. You're telling me, oh, there's no money in it. Bullshit. I talked about this on my show for a bit. I had a little rant Bullshit, there's no billionaires that are like, like I want to get a moon rock bitch. Like nobody, nobody's going to fucking put the money up to take a space ride to the moon. Bullshit, bullshit. Especially all these you know clout chasing streamers and whatever. They're going to find ways to make the money, mr Beast. Mr Beast isn't going to the moon, my ass. How much is it going to cost? We sent people up to the moon with less technology, less technology than what's in my phone. Exactly that seems iffy.

"$awbuck" Mike: 31:14

If we went to the moon 10 years after, there would be hotels up there. It would be a huge tourist industry. Not one other country has sent a live person to the moon since. That's.

"Headhunter" Higgins: 31:28

I don't know.

Jon Fitch: 31:29

Come on, man, not a single person, not even like a cool drone. Like maybe you should be able to like, set a uh, a cool drone and firework display or some shit on fourth july or shoots lasers off of it on the fourth of july something cool, nope?

"$awbuck" Mike: 31:50

have you ever seen something that you, that you, would consider like a ghost or something? I personally haven't. I'm open to them, to there being a possibility of them. I just haven't seen anything with my own eyes that I can say, yeah, that is. Have you have any stories like that? Maybe.

Jon Fitch: 32:05

Yeah, two stories. Nice One driving to high school at night. Look up and it's far away. I see a light. It's moving way too fast and too radically to be a plane or a helicopter or whatever. That was a few seconds that just took off. There was a trail and it was gone. I was like what the fuck? So that happened? I saw something weird in the sky. No idea what that could have been and that was you know, know, over 20 years ago.

Jon Fitch: 32:33

And then, uh, I had a friend down in um huntington beach going to irvine, uc irvine, all right, so I go to irvine, stayed on there and in the house they had mentioned that they thought there was a ghost like a little little kid, little girl ghost there and that people commonly would fall asleep and get sleep paralysis in the house, right, uh, like all the time, like people would always fall asleep or get sleep paralysis in the house.

Jon Fitch: 33:02

They said they thought they thought it was because the little girl spirit was like holding down and uh, the thing with little girl is like you'd never like see her. It was always you would see in your periphery her reflection or something in a mirror, right, so you'd come out of the shower you whatever, and you just see a blur. You'd look and then it would be gone. But like, I had a couple experiences where I I thought I saw something in my periphery and then, um, I got, I got the, the sleep paralysis, like four or five times in that, uh, in that house and you never had a sleep paralysis before or since uh, a couple times in my, you know, in my house, when I was a kid, nothing I was concerned about.

Jon Fitch: 33:43

But you know, I don't know if anything real happened, or maybe it was suggestive, maybe it was okay people talking about it, and then it gets suggested and then now it's in your head it was people talking about it, and then it gets suggested and then now it's in your head, right? Yeah, I'm not necessarily a believer in any of that stuff, but whatever, I can take note that something weird happened.

"Headhunter" Higgins: 34:01

Flat Earth or Round Earth.

Jon Fitch: 34:03

That's an easy one. What's that? Flat Earth or Round Earth? I'm still a Round Earth because we have sailors, we have people who navigate the seas using just the stars, and if somebody can you know, I would think they would be able to tell by looking at the stars, like where they're at. I think you should be able to use math. I'd seen somewhere that it said you can drive a straight line or sail a straight line from Alaska to India, but the only way that's possible is if the Earth is a globe, because if it wasn't a globe then you would have to go around edges and stuff.

"$awbuck" Mike: 34:47

I'm a glober too, yeah.

Jon Fitch: 34:49

But I will say this In my older years I realized that a lot of what we've been told is bullshit. And if you haven't been able to apply the scientific method in some sort on your own to a subject you really don't know, you really don't know anything. So I'm looking at everything as an interesting theory. That's an interesting theory unless I know for sure because I experienced it, because I could do the experiment myself, I could do the a b testing myself.

Jon Fitch: 35:18

Right, I can, I can hold my glass and let go and it's gonna fall. I'm gonna be like, okay, yeah, that gravity thing, I get it right. I can. I can, you know, drive my car and hit the brakes and feel myself move forward like oh, inertia. I see that things in motion do tend to stay in motion. I can prove that myself. But if I can't prove it myself, I'm at the point now where I'm like it's interesting, because a lot of like the political stuff nowadays it's just who knows what's real and most of it I have no control over and it doesn't really personally affect me straight up. So like interesting, okay, thanks, like it's hard for me to get invested in?

"Headhunter" Higgins: 36:00

yeah, for sure I'm. I'm with it, especially same, like you said, knowing that most of what we have been taught is a lie. It makes it hard for me to trust anyone, and I just have a distrust of nasa, who lied to us about going to the moon and was started by Nazis, started by Freemasons, so just.

Jon Fitch: 36:20

I'm skeptical of whatever it is they're trying to tell us.

"Headhunter" Higgins: 36:22

Aliens.

Jon Fitch: 36:23

There's a comedian named Owen Benjamin. Oh hell yeah, and he goes hard on the moon landing and flat earth and a lot of stuff.

"Headhunter" Higgins: 36:35

He's hilarious.

Jon Fitch: 36:38

Yeah, he's an interesting one. He's made me think about a few things pretty hard.

"$awbuck" Mike: 36:41

He's not real keen on uh crypto though he's a smart guy though, so when he is talking about he's very persuasive. I know he he has opened my mind to a few things too that I thought no fucking way.

Jon Fitch: 36:53

But yeah, no you have to understand what he's doing at first, because he's he's I don't even think he believes some of the stuff he says. He's just trying to make people think. So he'll say the most outrageous thing to be, like why you know? Like why do you believe what you believe? Like I don't even know if he's actually a flat earther, but I think, like he wants to make you explain why you think the globe, why it's a globe, why is it round? Like do you actually know? Are you just accepting it because somebody told you?

"Headhunter" Higgins: 37:20

for sure. His ability to mock and like, uh, parody things is fucking hilarious, and I think that's probably what he's doing a little bit too, just kind of parodying everybody and everybody's belief systems yeah, oh no, because, yeah, like all the stuff he was saying about bitcoin and crypto is hilarious.

Jon Fitch: 37:36

It is like like I got out of this space, you know, like I held on to my stuff, but like I got out of that space because it was like in 2018, 2017, it was like kind of toxic and annoying and gross and a lot of just grifters and I was like man, I don't like most of this stuff. I don't believe it. I believe in the technology behind the bitcoin. I believe in, like our monetary system falling apart and needing the hedge, but I don't want to deal with these, like these scammers and these uh, what were they? The initial initial initial stake offering or whatever, whatever their icos or isos or whatever what they were doing. It was out in those crazy times and and then another cycle comes through. We get the nfts and all that crazy. I don't even know what's going on now. I'm just holding on to my bitcoin dude the nfts.

"$awbuck" Mike: 38:24

I thought I still don't understand why anybody would want an nft. I just just screenshot it, you know. I don't know. I don't understand why people ever thought that was a thing. Do you believe in, uh, aliens? I'm a huge alien guy. I don't know what the fuck they are.

Jon Fitch: 38:41

But I, I, I don't, I don't think so. I mean like like squids and octopuses, I think are probably aliens, no doubt, unless there is some technology that allows people to to travel faster than the speed of light. The the universe is too big for there to be aliens to ever get to us. So they were like, so I. That's two things I would have to believe in. I gotta have to believe in this technology that just snaps life forms, you know, billions of light years away from each other, into each other's space. I think it's more likely that we have a lot of government uh, drone and spy programs. We don't hear about a lot of these things because our government doesn't want us to be scared, it doesn't want us to know about different spy things coming over. Remember there's like a chinese spy balloon not long ago that was hilarious you know, and they just kind of push that under the rug.

Jon Fitch: 39:40

I think we're doing the same thing to them. I don't think we know all the technology of the things that our government has, so I don't know. I think a lot of it's just misdirection too, I think. I think the government will put time and energy and money into fake programs to make people think that that's a real thing. It's a distraction. It's a distraction to truth seekers, I guess, and it's a distraction to other governments, because these other governments are like oh, they got aliens over there. Oh shit, who knows what kind of crazy alien technology they might have. So I think they use our tax money and they print more money to do stupid programs, like the whole psychic goat program thing. That was a real thing. I think there's that guy who talks about the spaceship and I think that guy really thinks he saw what he saw and he was being paid to do what he was being paid to do. But I think everything was fake.

"$awbuck" Mike: 40:32

Bob Lazar.

Jon Fitch: 40:34

Yeah, yeah, bob Lazar, right, I think he was lied Bob Lazar. Yeah, yeah, bob Lazar, right, I think he was lied to. He believes everything and he saw things, but I think it was just all big trick and he wanted to believe, so it was probably a lot easier to trick him.

"$awbuck" Mike: 40:44

He even said too, that he even his words were. You know, they could have totally been feeding me this to puppet, because I guess the word around town was that he was kind of a big mouth at the bar. He did kind of have a loose mouth, so I mean it kind of feeds into exactly what you were saying, do you think that's kind of what? Like you know, recently David Grush has been, you know, going before Congress and doing all that BS and he is openly, he's intelligent.

Jon Fitch: 41:11

So distraction. It's 100% a distraction. People are talking about that. And what's going on with the banks right now? What's going on with that housing market going to be propped up as long as the stock market is going to keep getting propped up with printed money and companies buying back their own stock empire is crumbling and it's.

"Headhunter" Higgins: 41:34

It's funny what you said, that you think it could have all just been, you know, orchestrated from the beginning and they pump money into it.

"Headhunter" Higgins: 41:40

One of our guests before Walter Bosley I'm not sure if you've heard of him, but he was the first to say or the first that I've ever heard, at least say that Roswell was like a double triple psyop. That Roswell's crash was one of our crafts, like we had a top secret craft we were testing. It crashed and then, because they didn't want either our you know, rivals or the public to know that we were flying around some crazy high-tech shit, that they instead used it as an opportunity to be like, uh, all right, aliens. We'll just, we'll tell them it was an alien crash and then they'll think you know, we have an alien epidemic at hand and we can use that to our advantage. And then, plus, our enemies will think, yeah, we'll reverse engineer an alien technology. Really, we just we have the technology to do this. While we keep them on gasoline and buying, like you know, paying for electricity and shit, meanwhile we could be zooming around in jetsons, ufos got space lasers we do have a space force now.

"$awbuck" Mike: 42:34

Trump made that so.

Jon Fitch: 42:36

I don't know if you guys remember this, if you're old enough for this, but there was a movie back in the 80s called Spies. Like Us, right, I've never seen it.

Jon Fitch: 42:44

It was Dan Aykroyd and Chevy Chase and the whole thing was kind of talking about Ronald Reagan's space program, right, because they had that space laser stuff they were supposed to shoot down nukes, like they were selling that, like that was a real thing back back in the 80s. We still don't have that shit. We still have space lasers, like some people think nukes don't exist. That's that's, that's another dinosaurs to.

"$awbuck" Mike: 43:12

Conspiracy have you heard? The dinosaurs don't exist.

Jon Fitch: 43:15

People I've heard, I've heard that because it's a conspiracy. Have you heard that dinosaurs don't exist people? I've heard that because it's interesting, Because their claim is they haven't ever found a full skeleton of any of these dinosaurs.

"$awbuck" Mike: 43:25

Not even close yeah.

Jon Fitch: 43:27

Yeah, they found like 10% of a skeleton and they just recreate the rest of it. They find a toe and a heel and they just recreate the rest of it. You know, they find a toe and a heel and they're like look at this fucking raptor that kills things and eats goats and whatever it's like you have no idea.

"$awbuck" Mike: 43:44

I mean, when I was growing up, dinosaurs had scales. Now supposedly they have feathers. So who?

"Headhunter" Higgins: 43:50

knows, I like to think they could have been dragons. Maybe dragons were real.

Jon Fitch: 43:59

That's what a lot of people think. That's why the word dragon, the image of the dragon and talking about the dragon is so universal in different cultures at different time periods. They think maybe that because they did maybe unearth some of the dragons, or they found some fossils that made them think that that was a dragon.

"$awbuck" Mike: 44:19

I don't know. Dragons is a hard one for me to jump on and I'm a huge Dungeons and Dragons nerd, so like no one would want dragons to be real more than me, but that's a hard one for me, you know.

"Headhunter" Higgins: 44:28

So I would think it would have been. Let's say, I don't know, I don't know how I subscribe to the timeline of how old the earth is or how old or how long ago dinosaurs would have been around, but let's say it was some type of ancient reptile and some of them survived until humans were around. Or maybe they were around with early primitive human and there were small populations of them left over in the jungle or in a cave or some shit left over in the jungle or in a cave or some shit. And the villagers and whatever knew like hey, don't go over there, you're gonna get fucking eaten by this like big prehistoric creature, like some huge alligator or something of the sort, a large snake or just reptilian thing. So that's when the most badass hero or knight or they would send the village to go slay the dragon, because there was some sort of threat that was.

Jon Fitch: 45:16

What is it that beowulf was like one of the first written stories ever. Was the guy going out and fighting the dragon?

"Headhunter" Higgins: 45:22

yeah, endless tales.

Jon Fitch: 45:23

No, I was watching something about this the other day, because there's like, uh, asian egyptian hieroglyphs that look like brontosauruses. There's caveman paintings of different like big lizard looking things. So there's a lot of like drawings of humans with things that look like some type of giant reptile.

"Headhunter" Higgins: 45:46

Right. Why would their Zodiac thing have all real animals and then one fake animal? I would assume if they had other fake animals they would have thrown a unicorn or a griffin or something else up there too. So who knows?

"$awbuck" Mike: 45:59

I know Mike what else? I know, I know that dragons weren't real. I know that much. Well, john, it's always fun talking to you, brother. I really appreciate you doing this. I know it's been a minute, but where can everybody get some more of your stuff? I know you mentioned that you do a couple of shows and everything.

Jon Fitch: 46:18

Yeah, you go to johnfitchnet sign up for the newsletter. I've got all my stuff links up there. I need to redo it, but everything's up there. Johnfitchsmash on Instagram. Johnfitchnet spelled out on Twitter. Yeah, I'm pretty easy to reach through DMs. Official John Fitch is my YouTube page. I do online instruction with people fighting stuff, jiu-jitsu, weights, whatever and then I have stuff on my Gumroad. So if you guys check all my link stuff in my descriptions, on my videos or on my social or uh on my social media accounts, uh, you go to the gum road. I got. I got online programs for for lifting, nutrition, uh, cardio and a lot of uh my seminars and teaching. I filmed stuff and I put little packages and programs together for people so they can get some extra um education outside of their normal training place Awesome.

"Headhunter" Higgins: 47:20

Thank you for coming on, bro. True legend, true pioneer of the sport. Thanks for your time. Thanks for having me. Guys. I'll check you guys later. John Fitch Always crazy to talk to dudes that I grew up watching fight and used to be like so starstruck and shit and just have a humanizing, chill, conspiracy conversation with him.

"$awbuck" Mike: 47:41

Yeah, I'm not here to make an argument that he's the best of all time. He's not. You think he's overrated or underrated. I don't think he's appreciated enough. I don't you know. Yeah for sure I don't think many. I don't think he he's not top five, but in my opinion he was probably in his prime.

"$awbuck" Mike: 47:59

He was a top ten guy, like right around that area. I mean he was really good. Just his style wasn't super entertaining to people that didn't like grappling and I think that kind of—and you know it doesn't help. When you got Dana White bad-mouthing, you know it doesn't help. When you got the fucking, when you got dana white, you know bad, bad mouth and you that that doesn't help. You know you had a lot of things going against him.

"Headhunter" Higgins: 48:22

Obviously, me as a wrestler and a grappler a dude that could control somebody so well was entertaining for me to watch and and I think it was exciting. And don't get me wrong, there are a lot of grapplers in mma that I don't find entertaining or like to watch. That is you know. It's pretty lackluster, but I always liked John Fitch. He was a fucking beast for sure. Gave George St Pierre a good fight. That was the golden era too. So much love for any of those guys from that time, some of my favorite guests.

"$awbuck" Mike: 48:52

Oh yeah, and he's retardedly rich now. Oh, really, favorite guests. Oh yeah, and he's retardedly rich now. Really, because, yeah, that settlement, bro, oh yeah, the settlement. So I mean you got it was a ridiculous hundreds of millions of dollars, and then the three primary plaintiffs were him, nate quarry and um kung lee. Yeah, so they get the bulk of it. So, but even let's say there's 150 fighters in the lawsuit, okay, so you spread $350 million. Well, that's before taxes. So let's say you take $180 million, you spread that through 150 fighters. Okay, but the bulk of that $180 is going to go to those three main guys. So, at the very least, let's go low, let's go super low. John's got 15 million in the bank brutal fought the system in one.

"$awbuck" Mike: 49:43

Yeah, no doubt, no doubt. And he, he doesn't need to be podcasting, he doesn't need to be selling anything, he my point is, he's got money, he's doing this because he, he wants to do it, you know. So I think that's cool too. But who really thought that they were going to win that lawsuit? I mean, there was two. One got dismissed right away and dude, here we are all these years later. I wonder how mark hunt's fight is going.

"Headhunter" Higgins: 50:11

Yeah, that's another one. He was probably one of the few guys, like he even said, though to just be like, okay, it's just a job, it's just a boss, like looking at it like that is so much funnier, like it's your country, like boss at the warehouse or at something else, and it's dana white and the ufc, and you're just like, oh well, yeah, this is a job, like fuck them, I don't really care you know, what I found super fun and interesting in the podcast was you, you know.

"$awbuck" Mike: 50:37

So we started opening up the conspiracy talk and he's like, yeah, you know, I'm not too into that. And then he proceeds to go like he lists all these conspiracies that he totally buys into. I love it, you know it's like yeah. I don't know, I'm not too. And then he's like well, definitely, this one, of course. Yeah, that one for sure.

"Headhunter" Higgins: 50:55

It's like all right, yeah, okay, you're one of us people who don't, yeah, who don't consider themselves a conspiracy theorist, yeah, I mean, yeah, it is just becoming more so common knowledge nowadays that it's not even uh the kook, it's just everyone has their own uh spectrum that they believe conspiracies, starting out with uh.

"$awbuck" Mike: 51:14

Okay, yeah, the government kind of lied to us maybe to, holy shit, the world is uh run by interdimensional demons and it's run by its servants, or it's possessed, fucking lackeys and one of my favorites of late is flat earth, and if anybody's listening and they consider themselves a flat earth expert or they know somebody, please let us know, because we have been trying to get a flat earth expert guest on here so we can talk to them. We've explored it very rudimentary. We'd like to take a deep dive and put some chill vibes into it. So someone that is listening hopefully is an expert, or they know an expert. So someone that is listening hopefully is an expert, or they know an expert. They can get in touch with Tom or I, tom and or myself via social media at Two Truth Seekers, or you could reach out to me at Sawbuck Mike, or you could reach out to Tom at Headhunter Higgins, or you could email us at conspiracyandchillayahoocom.

"$awbuck" Mike: 52:12

If you want to be one of the very first Conspiracy and Chill Syndicate members, you can do so at Patreon. If you want to help support the show, you can do so for as little as $3 by hitting that little button on whatever platform you're listening to us on. If you can't do any of that, but you still want to help out, give us a five-star review. That shit really helps. What else you got? Nothing, all right, stay with us. From Petaphiles.

"$awbuck" Mike: 52:34

We'll be right back guitar solo.

Jon Fitch: 52:42

Thank you,