#16 | Ed Latimore | Sobriety, Struggles, and Simulation Theory | "Once You Are Identified As Prey, Predators Start Treating You That Way"

Discover how a man can transcend the boundaries of the boxing ring to conquer realms of literature, science, and the cerebral battlefield of chess. Ed Latimore isn't your average ex-fighter; a best-selling author and physics graduate, Ed's story is a hard-hitting testament to the power of transformation and the relentless pursuit of knowledge.

We tackle the gritty realities of poverty and the enlightening paths out of it, exploring how mentorship and a thirst for learning can shape a life in unexpected ways. We also delve into the tactical parallels between combat sports and chess, examining how both disciplines require a sharp mind and an indomitable spirit.

But it's not just about the fight; it's about the beliefs that guide us and the coincidences that sometimes seem too serendipitous to ignore. In our discussion, we grapple with the concepts of intelligent design, the impact of belief systems on our actions, and the intriguing notion of a universe that might just have a plan for us all.

Ed Latimore - X
Ed Latimore - IG

Transcript

"Sawbuck" Mike: 0:00

Anticon. Uh, I guess, I guess our thing is just gonna be no set intro. I guess we're just gonna bring it in randomly every time. Fuck it right now.

"Headhunter" Higgins: 0:26

We're organic, we do it organic here. There we go.

"Sawbuck" Mike: 0:29

We have Ed Ladimor we're gonna be chat with today. He's a fascinating dude. He's been a lot of things in life. He was a professional boxer at one point. He's a best-selling author, Got a physics degree and more recently he's getting into competitive chess playing. He's working on another book right now. Yeah, we talked about a lot of different things.

"Headhunter" Higgins: 0:50

True Renaissance man and he definitely shatters the the dumb fighter stereotype because, like a couple of the guests we've had on the show, like you could tell they're intelligent guys and like you and me, we're well researched guys and, like I would say, we're pretty smart in our own right. But then there's some some guests we talked to and I'm like dude, I am fucking stupid. Like when he's going out about some of the physics stuff you can tell he's very smart guy and just a well-rounded dude, super cool guy, fun conversation. Like I like the spirit science spin on things, if you will, if you want to call it that that we get into towards the end.

"Sawbuck" Mike: 1:28

You could always count on you for having the definition and the origin of words, dude, and I love it, because I always learn some new shit. Like, I never know the origin of these words and you always hit me with some crazy shit. So it's cool, dude, I appreciate that.

"Headhunter" Higgins: 1:45

I feel like the etymology of words and the origins of words and looking back as far as you can, even when it comes to like names or places names and shit like that, that's a good way to try and go all the way back. And sometimes it leads to speculating and maybe it's not as accurate or I'm reading into it. I like to think I've uncovered quite a bit of things with that. And when it comes to the L cool thing, yeah, that's very real and it's very telling, I would say.

"Sawbuck" Mike: 2:15

You'll hear the conversation we had regarding it, how you tie it all into the spirits, and, yeah, it's good shit. But before we get into the Ed Ladinmore conversation, if you're a fan of the podcast or whether it's your first time here, we appreciate you, no matter what. If you are liking what we're putting down, please go ahead and give us a five star review on whatever platform you are listening to us on, as well as give us a follow, like, subscribe all the social media platforms X, instagram, youtube. We have a patreon that we're going to start really kicking up, getting some more content on, and we appreciate all the listeners that we have worldwide.

"Sawbuck" Mike: 2:55

So us being you know a fairly new podcast. We really do appreciate all the listeners. We have a ton of listeners from the Oceania area, which is like Australia, new Zealand. We have a lot of listeners in Asia, europe, north America, some in Africa, so it's literally all over the fucking world, dude. Not too many in South America. We're not really representing there, so don't know what's going on. But maybe we need to get some Spanish guests out or something. I don't know, maybe some mamacitas.

"Headhunter" Higgins: 3:30

We haven't had a female guest just yet, so we maybe we got to get a little more inclusive here. Yeah, the fact that we have had such widespread listeners and as much as support as we've had so far with being a pretty new podcast, definitely greatly appreciated. We want to hear from you guys. We want you to reach out to us if you want to be on the podcast. You want to nominate someone that you want to be a guest on the show? Definitely Nominate, nominate, reach out to us on social media.

"Sawbuck" Mike: 3:58

Nominate. That's a funny way of putting it. Yes, shoot us an email, conspiracyandchilliajoucom. Hit one of us up on social media, or you can hit the podcast up at Two Truth Seekers, or you can hit Mr Higgins up or myself up. Go ahead and do all of those. One of those that are ways easiest for you if you do have a suggestion or you just want to shoot the shit, because Tom's not just saying we want to build a community here. We really do want to build a community of like minded individuals, because if you are like Tom and you are like me and you are like Mystic Mark and a lot of these guys out here in this community, it could be lonely when you're trying to express these ideas with loved ones. So yeah, come on, let's build a fucking community, guys and girls.

"Headhunter" Higgins: 4:45

Yeah, let's get it.

"Sawbuck" Mike: 4:46

Not so much girls. We got to get our first female guest down here, preferably a hot mama-sita.

"Headhunter" Higgins: 4:51

Yeah, we won't be complaining about that. Maybe we'll have to wait till we get some video on.

"Sawbuck" Mike: 4:56

Yes, well, yeah, that might be the breast course of action, if you know what I'm saying.

"Headhunter" Higgins: 5:03

Entice the people to get on that Patreon we're all human.

"Sawbuck" Mike: 5:07

You know who else is human?

"Headhunter" Higgins: 5:09

Who's that?

"Sawbuck" Mike: 5:09

Ed Ladimor.

"Headhunter" Higgins: 5:11

Great guy, one of a kind human, for sure.

"Sawbuck" Mike: 5:14

Enjoy. Yeah, so we got Ed Ladimor. You are a former heavyweight boxer, you're a bestselling author, you have a physics degree and you're a competitive chess player, which I just found super awesome. I'm a huge, I'm not good, but I love chess, so welcome.

Ed Latimore: 5:28

I'm getting better. I'm not as good as I should be yet, but I am. As I learn how to learn chess. More I get better at chess. But that's like anything, is you learn how to learn it. I think people forget that that's a very important component of improving. You have to know what it takes. You know there's like the general here's how we get better at stuff and then there are the specifics just how you get better at this thing.

"Sawbuck" Mike: 5:53

You've kind of taken that approach into a lot of different areas. You know, like I said, you were a former heavyweight boxer, super successful at that. You're a bestselling author, so obviously you've done well for yourself in that regard. You got a degree in physics, so it speaks for itself. And you know, now you're getting into the realm of competitive chess, so is that something that you kind of look for like the next big challenge for yourself?

Ed Latimore: 6:15

You know what it really comes down to is. You know, when I was a kid I grew up poor. I mean about as poor as you can grow up in America. I'm always careful to say in America, because not that I've traveled around, I've seen some places. We live like kings. Even our poor people do. It's wild, but that doesn't mean it's like easy. I just mean it in the grand scheme of things.

Ed Latimore: 6:39

But I bring that up to say there were a lot of things I could not do when I was a child, like all of my interests. I never got a chance to partake in any of them. It wasn't until I got to high school where I could, like you know, do things that I wanted to do, and even still I couldn't really do them. And I can only do them because I could, you know, work and pay for myself. So pretty much what my life is now is like okay, here are these things that I found interesting when I was like 14 or 15. But I either didn't have the funds or didn't have the support to go into them and not to do.

Ed Latimore: 7:16

What I've pretty much done on my adult life is figure out how to do them and see if you know, if I want to stick with it or go long, or maybe I'm just not cut out for it, but really if you just keep sticking with one thing and you stay focused, you can go pretty far, like you know.

Ed Latimore: 7:39

Maybe like marginal natural athletic ability, like marginal, I found out, you know, talking to some guys and I'm like you know, but I think I went pretty well as both an amateur and a professional fighter, and then, like marginal math is the worst in marginal math ability. I felt math like badly, to the point where I didn't actually technically graduate from high school but that's another story but to go in and get my physics degree there and I was push myself and see what I can do and get better. So it's not that I'm looking for the next thing. I'm always looking for a thing that will challenge me and it will and will and is like interesting as well, like let me throw and do the things that I couldn't do when I was young.

"Sawbuck" Mike: 8:27

Pittsburgh right, are you growing Pittsburgh? How was, how was growing up? I've grown up was was.

Ed Latimore: 8:33

You know I divide my childhood into two time periods prior to high school and high school. You know, before and after high school. Before high school I didn't really have a lot of fun. I didn't like things, you know because I went to. So I grew up in a public housing project and the way the schools break things down. You go to school with people in your neighborhood and so I went to school. People in my neighborhood are like the neighboring poor neighborhoods. Some of us were projects, others were just like really low class, like barely working class neighborhoods. So I went to school with a lot of those people and I didn't really like I'm just not that dude. The way I was designed, built, whatever subtle influences from, from the influences I did have and I enjoy things Now when I got to high school was a lot different because I went to high school and a magnet program but so I had to apply to get in and all that good stuff, and when I went there that high school was, I think it took me an hour to get there, an hour to get home.

Ed Latimore: 9:42

So I spent two hours a day traveling, but it was in a completely different part of town and it was with people in a completely different social economic background.

Ed Latimore: 9:51

Like people don't believe me when I tell them. But high school was the first time that I knew anyone who were like both of their parents were around, like at home, for example. Or I met anyone that didn't live in a like they weren't poor, I mean like not rich. I mean there were some rich kids because of the way the school worked, but most of them they just weren't poor and it was really interesting dynamic to see what a family looks like and what friends were like from different backgrounds. And my friends always say I was the beneficiary of positive peer pressure. I just happened to become friends with a group of kids like none of them drank in high school or anything like that. I had a great time, a great childhood after when I turned 14 and I stopped spending. I mean I didn't even spend holidays at home, mostly I had. My friends really were like my surrogate family, so that's what it was like to be growing up here.

"Sawbuck" Mike: 10:55

You mentioned influences. Who were some of your influences growing up?

Ed Latimore: 10:59

Oh, growing up I didn't have, you know, before 14, I didn't have anything. I knew what I didn't want to be. That's pretty much it. Like you know, most of my family are trying to think. On my mom's side, I don't think I know anybody who hasn't served some degree of a prison sentence or didn't have like multiple baby daddies or things like that. They were people I didn't want to be like, and on my dad's side, more or less the same thing, not so much with the prison part, but lots of negligence in other ways and still, you know, in the projects or not being around. So I didn't have any influence there. But when I got to high school, you know it was. It's not like they were role models, but it was a small change that at the beginning didn't do much. But over the course of my life being around these people really really just made a difference. It helped me see that there was a different way to be. Of course you resisted efforts because you don't know anything else, and it's not like they were like forcing values on me, it's just that I didn't.

Ed Latimore: 12:20

It was a confusing time for me because, you know, on the one hand, I'm coming from this background where there's like food is more or less rationed, like when you're on public assistance you got what you get until the next month, and so it's not a ration in the pure sense but it's. You know you better be careful. Meanwhile I go to my friend's house in there but it had let me come over for dinner every night and it's not a big deal to have extra food and stuff like that and like I had one. You know my dad died. He actually had a life insurance policy and I got like $55,000 when I was 18. And one of my dad's and one of my friend's dad. So he was like you know you should do X, y and Z with the money. I just had no concept of saving, investing and really the future, kind of like you know, most poor people who come up from that the background does.

"Sawbuck" Mike: 13:18

And I wish I had listened to him. Right, you're 18 too, you know, you're 18.

Ed Latimore: 13:22

Yeah, so it's. It's just not going, it just didn't work. But over time, you know I was like you know you guys. I tell them all the time randomly on Facebook whenever I'm thinking of something about you guys. You know you change and save my life. Who knows who I would have turned into?

"Sawbuck" Mike: 13:38

How'd you get into boxing? That's what I'm asking man.

Ed Latimore: 13:42

that's another story of just random influences, not from where I came from. So I didn't start boxing until I was 22.

Ed Latimore: 13:50

Okay, which is like you know, kind of old, but for the heavyweight division not that old, because your body has to grow and mature into that size, which is why you see a lot of these guys come from other sports. You're like if you box from a child, as it's from from young, younger days. Unless you're like six five, you're not going to become a heavyweight, it's just you just don't carry enough muscle. And then the way training is, you don't put that muscle on Right. So at 22, I was, I was dating this girl and I had already, I had tried college and got kicked out and I was drinking and I was going to and I wasn't going anywhere. I was, I was working at Starbucks, that's what I was doing and and I used to like rail against college all the time, like how ridiculous it was.

Ed Latimore: 14:36

And I still think it's ridiculous difference. Now I got a degree and really can't, can't argue with me, or at least you have to form a stronger argument than yours. And, man, you don't have a degree, you didn't do it. I'm like, yeah, All right, but at that, at that point, I didn't, and and this didn't go over too well with the girl's mom I was dating because she was a college professor and and one day she said to me she said well, let's pretend you're right and colleges is worth this. Tell me what you've done with your life in the past four years Other than show up to my house to eat my food. And then she threw me out and I was like I was. You know I'm shed a man tear and I was sad about it, but but she was absolutely correct and I didn't have any sweat equity. Like if I died that day, you know what would you be able to say about me, you know?

Ed Latimore: 15:35

So I started looking around for things to do to kind of just really not be a boring dude and not be like just a typical lame not going anywhere, and and I said I don't want to do this. I was going to either enlist in the army and go, go full time act of duty. But that's when we were in being Iraq and we were just throwing bodies at the problem and I was like, ah, you know, I don't want to change that much. And the other option was over. You know, YouTube had just come out of the box. Youtube had just come out and I was watching fight videos on the on YouTube and I said, you know, I could try this out and I had no idea what it could be. But it was something other than what I was doing and it was sweat equity somewhere. Like you ever see, the old, most interesting man in the world commercials.

Ed Latimore: 16:26

Oh yeah, Like you know, it's never too early to start beefing up your obituary. That always stuck with me and and that's how I looked at boxing and I was, like you know, it's never too early to start beefing up my obituary. So I got into it and started started training my first year. I didn't know which, which discipline I'd stick with. So for every four, six out of seven days in a week, I was training at either a boxing class, a boxing Brazilian jujitsu class or an MMA one, and I just did it. All I've got. I've actually got two amateur MMA fights lost of both. But like it was a, it was a good, a good exposure, and I said I'm going to stick with boxing because it just made sense, for I weighed out all the pros and cons and tried to look at the future and I said, all right, boxing is really the best thing for me to do, so that's, that's how that happened.

"Headhunter" Higgins: 17:18

You get into a lot of scraps as a kid, or was there a reason that you fought boxing?

Ed Latimore: 17:26

So. So the reason I thought boxing was good is because I was an all right football player. It was really fast, really athletic, really strong. So I said, all right, how, how can I use that now that I'm not playing sports, not in college and not in high school? And that was my, my thought. I said, all right, combat sports.

Ed Latimore: 17:45

Because, like, the cool thing about combat sports is that you don't have to be like enrolled in an institution somewhere to do them. You just show up, do them go down to and then you know, pay your fees to USA boxing if you're an amateur or or to whatever athletic commission is. When you're a pro and you can, you can take a fight. So it's it's, it's a. There was not as high of a barrier to entry for someone, and in fact I would. I would say that if you're not, if you don't start playing the sport when you're younger the other sports, you you can't pick up basketball and hope to get to a high level when you're nineteen. It's just not going to happen. If for any other reason, you know, but a side aside from the competition, I mean aside from the barriers in place, like the competition, because the thing that a more skill based. There's organizations and things you got to do, but that's the one reason I chose boxing.

Ed Latimore: 18:40

The other reason, you know the other thing, you brought up that I scrapped a lot. I've fought a lot as a kid like not after 14, because I was no longer in that environment but I did fight a lot as a kid but it was never like let me go and pick a fight because I hate it Fighting man. I didn't want to like bang with people. But I also knew that if I, if I wasn't willing to bang with people, then my life was going to get a lot harder every day. You know, once you are identified as prey, predators start treating you that way so you can't ever let yourself be seen as a weak link. They have to know that they you know they may win the fight, whatever right, but they got to know that there's a cost to messing with you. And if there is no cost that will be enacted, then you're going to have a hard time and a hard time and I didn't want a hard time.

Ed Latimore: 19:38

You know, growing up, growing up in the projects in school I went to it's amazing how similar a lot of that is to like. I think prison dynamics Never been a java, from what I hear, because you know, like my neighborhood, it was a gated community. You know there were like three ways in any world gated with security and in those same ways out. Everyone knew everyone, where everyone lived. Once they knew that you weren't going to fight back, then you would be that person they would pick on, they would try and take stuff from them, they would try and bully.

Ed Latimore: 20:16

And one of the things my mom did really well, you know she was like you know you get into a fight with somebody. You know you don't run, you know we're going to go back out there and fight them. They got to know she didn't understand the dynamic, I think. I think it was just something all people who grew up in this environment more or less intuitively grasp. It's just that you can't let yourself be punked, be bullied or anything like that, because it's not like they get satisfied. It's like you know, once somebody realize they can take advantage of you, it's going to keep taking advantage of you. And I said that it's like that, but that's human nature, unfortunately.

"Headhunter" Higgins: 20:51

I can speak the same. I've always hated bullies and I never started a fight in my life, but I was a skater when I was growing up and being a skateboarder just a bunch of punk, unsupervised kids hanging out at the skate park. It's bound to happen and you're going to get into it here and there, and I had my fair share of scraps growing up. Something else you said, too, about the fact that you can kind of just, you know, make your own path within combat sports, and I've said it quite a few times when we talked to other fighters on the show, that there's a large crossover between having alternative views or, you know, being more open-minded and being willing to take the path of, you know, stepping into a combat arena. And it's one of the few avenues that, like there's very little outside influence like other sports, other, like businesses or jobs or whatever. It's about who you know or how your social networking is.

"Headhunter" Higgins: 21:47

And with. When it comes to fighting, it really is for the most part outside of maybe the referees or other things man to man. It's you, in the work you've put in you, in your mentality, your spirit, versus the other guys. So I've always loved that aspect of it and it just lends itself well to having a strong or a unique mindset.

Ed Latimore: 22:05

Yeah, yeah, you know I always say there's nothing quite like boxing or earning combat sport. I should say combat sport. When I say combat sport, I get a lot of flack for this when I talk about it on social media. When I say combat sport, I'm talking about striking. You know Brazilian jiu-jitsu and all that, and wrestling has its place. But the big difference between those activities and ones where there is striking is that in those activities, striking is penalized. In the striking arts, that's how the score is kept. So, no matter what, that's how the damage is done and that's how one determines who is winning the fight is the damage required?

Ed Latimore: 22:56

And there's something very unique about that. Yeah, you got to be in shape to wrestle and all that, but you got to be in shape to run a marathon. You know, you don't have to develop this capacity to push through pain, and not just push through the pain of being exhausted, but, like when someone is trying to hurt you and you are, you are dead tired, like you got to fight back. You have to learn to manage your adrenaline under the threat of, like, very real negative consequences If you don't do. Well, there's, there's something that, that just there's something about all of that, which is why I think all combat sports are a great analogy for life.

Ed Latimore: 23:40

And if you can, if you can manage to do it and do it well and let it transform you. Not everyone lets it transform and make you think, and they can. They can fuck around and do drugs and drinking stuff and compete. And maybe there's like an incredibly gifted athlete out there you know, john Jones might maybe like you can do coke and get out there and compete for a while, but you got to let it clean you out if you want to be good, if you like most people. You know, when you defend a strike it hurts. That's something that a lot of people don't understand. It's not. The only difference is whether it disrupts your conscious or your equilibrium and your consciousness. But but it all hurts, like it's all very, very painful and you learn to push through that and there's there's a lot, of, a lot of analogies to that and just general liberty.

"Headhunter" Higgins: 24:34

When it comes to chess. I'm not really a chess player myself. I've always kind of wanted to get more into it, but unfortunately I don't have much experience in it. How would you say the crossover between the tactics of boxing when it comes to having to manage the offense and the defense all at the same time, and then going into a chess career? What do you think is the crossover?

Ed Latimore: 24:52

Well, the first, the crossovers. You know there's a lot of frustration when you don't get something right and you keep losing for the wrong. You know you're like why did I lose there, why did I lose there? The frustration of wanting to improve and coming up against your limits, that is. That is very real.

Ed Latimore: 25:18

So, unlike, unlike the combat sports, chess is continually evolving, like, like I've got a theory. I'm not. I'm not so sure about MMA because I don't know it, know that world that well. But while boxing, from a skill perspective, is, oh man, it is degraded and it's compared to, like you know, 30, 40 years ago, every other sport. Everyone's gotten better because the knowledge is constantly tested and if it doesn't work, it's thrown out because there's so much money involved. No one wants to make a mistake. Everyone was trying to keep a job. It's a, it's a competitive environment. So everyone continues to get better over time and you see that in the metrics of the athletes they can do bigger, stronger, faster, right, and in boxing it's like the opposite.

Ed Latimore: 26:05

It's weird. How does this relate to chess? Chess is a lot like the, the sports where there is continual improvement because there's a share of knowledge and no one claims to have a grasp on their tactics, like if we ever talk to, like boxing coaches, they treat their methods like it's gospel and just assume that you know, not everyone's going to make it. And like, imagine if you were even a high school football coach of a decent program and your your philosophy was you know well, last year we went, we went 10 and 0 because we had this guy, this guy, this guy, this guy, but that's sure you're going to be fine with two and two and eight or three and seven, and the board is going to be cool without our college program. But we cool without a viewer coach. You'd be out of a job and they get the next guy.

Ed Latimore: 26:58

In boxing there's no such filtering mechanism, no competitive pressure, there isn't chess. So in chess I have to. You know, if I say too much time off from training, like I lose so many games in a row, it's kind of embarrassing. And and that's because everyone's always trying to learn and get better, even even your, even your casual players who don't study, they're not going to be able to study, they're just by virtue of being able to get so much time in. But other than that, other than the comparison between kind of the development of the abilities of the practitioners, they're just very different.

Ed Latimore: 27:36

You know, like I wish I could come up with some, some philosophical spin about the similarities between boxing and chess, and I've tried, believe me, I've tried, and and there are some in terms of like like, for example, you know, cutting off the ring. The way I used to think about cutting off the ring is the way you would use your works to control ranks and push them. Push your, push a piece or push your the king is like the main term. You know, to cut off lanes for a piece to attack. There are certain tactical ideas that are very similar, but the mindset nah, man, like I'll take, I'll take sitting all day in a chess tournament over, sitting waiting all night to go on freaking last on a boxing card, Because that's how it is and they're not not last but like late man boxing is that? I forgot all about that aspect until we started talking about it.

Ed Latimore: 28:31

My amateur career man, because they're you know they're packing on as many fights as they can because they don't have to pay the fighters. But the more fighters you have on the car, the more people pay to see them. So the person I was in the fight makes a lot. And then their backwards model and I actually don't think it's backwards, since, since heavy weight fights tend to be a little more violent because you can cause more damage and guys get knocked out more and so the heavier they are, the more likely that has to happen and you want to keep people around because of like the knockout happens really and then it's a little guys trying to get them out. So as an amateur, I spent a lot of time like showing up to the arena at six o'clock and not going on to like 9, 30, 10, really miserable.

"Headhunter" Higgins: 29:13

Honestly, that time waiting before the matches that is that really is stressful and it's like all the training you put in and all the mental prep and stuff that's like the fight is nothing compared to those last little bits where you just have to wait to go walk out. Have you, have you coached any fighters too, and been in the corner for any fights?

Ed Latimore: 29:33

I haven't cornered anyone yet because you know I've done coaching at a few not a few gyms, at one gym here locally and then did that for about two years and I really enjoyed that aspect of coaching and teaching. I don't know if I ever corner someone, because that's a huge responsibility, and I know it because over the course of my amateur career I think I was in a very unique position to where I ended up with shit. I think I probably had over 10 different guys cornered me and you know some of those were much longer than others. But what you, what a fighter needs is is a system, right, not okay, yeah, a system.

Ed Latimore: 30:15

And the way a system develops is the coach should be able to say certain things. You know what those things mean and you should be able to just react to them quickly, because he's got a different viewpoint than anything you do. So you need to spend a lot of time around that coach to understand his system and the way he thinks, and they get that to work with you as well. You know, if he catches something and he tells you what to do, you got to be able to trust that he knows what he's talking about as well. That can only happen over time and I would never want to come in and give someone, you know, give them all the tools and everything but that, because that's only part of it.

Ed Latimore: 30:57

But they don't. They don't have my brain in the corner because you know, I got other things going on. Now, maybe as I, as I move on in my life and take all the things and I feel like I rather reduce other things and I feel comfortable devoting that time to someone to be with them, you know, for for two to three years and train I could easily see myself doing it because I enjoyed the coaching aspect so much. It really is fun. Teaching in general was awesome.

"Sawbuck" Mike: 31:28

We like to get into a little bit of fringe out of the box type things like we like to talk about spirituality and whatnot on this podcast. So if if you don't mind me asking. I know you've overcame addiction and I wanted to know did you take a spiritual approach or do you actively participate in like a spirituality, like a 12 step program, or I guess what I'm trying to say is what worked for you to kick that demon out of you know, to get that, to get that monkey off your back?

Ed Latimore: 31:56

So I got, I got lucky, man. I really, you know I only know that in retrospect it's not like there was this, this crazy confluence of circumstances, that I planned for it. So when I started, when I realized it was like, you know, when it was really getting bad, man, I went away for six months. When I enlisted in the Army and you know, the first 10 weeks is basic training. You're not drinking, you just get a lot of time to think because you're not even really supposed to socialize and be like. Later on you can find like moments here and there to like chat with people. But you know, I enlisted when I was 28,. Man, most of these kids are like, you know, like kids 18, 19, got really nothing to talk about. But so I had a lot of time to think and reflect. And then, I think, in reflection, I was, I just thought about everything that brought me to the point where I was at and I said, yeah, you know there's a problem.

Ed Latimore: 32:59

And then I went to AIT, which is where you go for your advanced, you know, individual training for your whatever your military occupational specialty is. And while I was there, you know, there's a lot more freedom. I always say that, like the AIT is like, is like college without the booze, pretty much Like you can't have booze in the dorm, you can't drink in uniform. And if you get a pass to go out of base, even if you're not in uniform, if they catch you drinking like and even if you're like of age, like I was, you're not really you're probably going to get in trouble and that can be, depending on the commander, that could be anything just the UCMJ to where they start, or write up a uniform code, military justice, write up to where they just like boot you're out. So I didn't drink. Once I went snuck off. We went and saw a bag, grandpa and Boston, some liquor snuck into the movie theater, the poured into the sodas but like I didn't really drink. But I made friends that I still have today and I was the first time in my adult life that I had made friends without alcohol and that's really important later in the story not so much initially, but I started to build an identity without alcohol and I was like, wow, I'm like a cool dude man, like I can do this whole like socializing and making friends thing without the background. And then when I came back I went out, I got like hammer, like December 22nd, and I woke up and I said, yeah, well, this is not going to work for me anymore and that's when I really tried to get sober. That was when I kicked it right, or that was my first day of not drinking, december 23rd.

Ed Latimore: 34:41

Now, what happened in the next few months is key. I was so busy with my life, like I was. What was I doing? Okay, so I had to get a job. I worked at a bank and then I was in school. That's the reason why I re-enlisted it so I could get money for school, or not re-enlisted enlisted so I could get money for school. So I was taking classes. I was still training to fight, to be a professional fighter. By this point, I was three and O as a pro and I still had my military occupational drills for my guard unit and I was in a new relationship that still, to this day, we got a kid. Now it's awesome how these things work. Get your life together. Congratulations, thank you. I can hear him running around after giving her hell. Right now she's 14 months.

Ed Latimore: 35:33

But all of this is to say that for the first, you know, 16 months of my sobriety, man, I was too busy to even go out and drink if I wanted to. And I think that's a really important component, that you got to fill that hole with something and I inadvertently filled it with all of these activities that simultaneously built up my identity that I had started to develop in AIT and basic training, to an extent what people saw me as this person to kind of look up to and respect, and all that. And I didn't want to tarnish that and I also kept myself from being tempted by really being busy. I wasn't going out with my friends because I had no time for that. My wife doesn't drink. I mean, she's okay, she's trying, like a glass of wine. She's the type of person that'll go by bottle of wine or a glass because she wants to drink and then forget that she drank. Like leave half of the glass of wine there and forget we've got a bottle and it will go bad after three months, like she's that kind of person. So like I never had to deal with that pressure at home. So my environment and me changed and I had a lot of reinforcement when that happened.

Ed Latimore: 36:49

I actually went to an AA meeting the first night and let me tell you something, man, I'm sitting there in the meeting and I'm hearing these stories and in my arrogance I was like I'm not like these people. I got, I ain't got a problem, but I don't have a problem, not bad. And then somebody hit me up, like four years in, and they were like hey, man, I'll be in town and I'd love to see you go get your chip. And so I went to the meeting with him and then got my token and as I'm sitting there, you know, talking around cause a lot of AA is not full of like old timbers, like I don't think I've ever been to a meeting where there's like everyone's got like five, six years of sobriety, unless a lot of people. You know they're in their first 30 days, their first few months, and hearing them stories and looking back with a little more maturity and I was like man, I'm exactly like everybody here, like exactly. The only difference is is I've been, I've stuck with my sobriety longer and here's how. So so there was no like spirituality component to it and I didn't use AA in the way that most people would think about it.

Ed Latimore: 37:54

But that's what really ended up working out for me is a happenstance of circumstance, and so what I tell people when they're talking about getting sober.

Ed Latimore: 38:05

The first thing I recommend is really a one, two punch is one you gotta like. You gotta pick up something that's meaningful, not just a hobby, but something that's meaningful that you couldn't do when you were drinking. And you gotta throw yourself in the ad. And then you also gotta alter your environment. You know, you gotta get away from the influence, because sobriety is a habit, just like drinking is a habit. And so if you want sobriety habit that gets strong enough to resist drinking much like you know you're drinking habit gets strong enough to resist sobriety in most scenarios then you gotta practice it and after a few months it'll be so strong, like at this point, somebody put some booze in front of me. It would be hard for me to drink the booze, like I'd look at it and go, ah, this is what is this, and smell it and it would feel terrible. But it's cause you know time and time and now it you know 10 years.

"Sawbuck" Mike: 38:57

You're right. I mean, everything you said is right on. It's so key. I think it's really important for people to realize that there's no monopoly on recovery. There's no one way to do it. That way worked for you and there's no one can take that away from you. It worked for you. So that's awesome, dude. I love it, and we had 10 years. That's a big mark. Man Got mine coming up and I wish you all the best.

Ed Latimore: 39:19

Oh, man congrats, oh, thank you.

Ed Latimore: 39:23

It's amazing because, like I look at my life now and how happy I am and what I have, and I know that none of this would happen if I was still drinking. I wish I could say how I thought, because it doesn't feel like thinking, but it doesn't feel like thinking. I just know how I lived and my inability to reflect and take responsibility and all that Like it just was a mess of a person. You know Anna wouldn't still be here if I was drinking. I know that because I know how I drink and I know the type of person she is and you know we have a family together and it's been like great, great time. I couldn't imagine how I'd get anything or have anything. It would be a different life. I don't. I'm happy. I never went down. I won't say never went down.

Ed Latimore: 40:09

The way I look at it is like that day on December 23rd that's my first day of Subrahi. I look at that day as like if we could somehow go backwards in time. What you would see is there's a convergence path and I chose to go down this path of milk alcohol as opposed to the other one, and there's a whole Tom Lonnie bullshit. I will never have to deal with it. Think about encounter, because I got it out of there. It's not there anymore. I just removed one thing that just caused every other problem.

"Sawbuck" Mike: 40:43

Same way with me, man, other than the drugs. I mean, I was a perfectly good, upstanding citizen and, yeah, you're right, man, getting clean has literally given me a life that I can't even dream of. But I wanted to ask you is there ever been a time in your life have you maybe seen something that you can't explain, whether it's maybe something in the sky or maybe something that people would describe as a ghost? Do you have any kind of crazy stories like that?

Ed Latimore: 41:14

I don't know if this counts, but I gotta believe. Here's what I believe. I believe I'm meant to be with the woman I'm meant to be with because when we first met, we were together for like a month or so or month or two and I was just like I don't think this is good for me. But the reality is it was great for me. I was, you know, she was just normal, so I thought she was messed up. That's how messed up people in the world get.

Ed Latimore: 41:43

That's funny man, so I broke it off and don't you know that for the next man, it must have been like three, four weeks where every time we were in the vicinity, my phone told me. Facebook used to have this like you know, you can see when someone is in your vicinity. It used to tell me when we were in the vicinity of one another. And finally, one day we ended up at the same restaurant for lunch, a restaurant neither of us ever go to and it started telling me like hey, she's around and I wouldn't you know talk to her and made up and fix some stuff, and so it's an interesting thing. The way that works is that. And then, because of that, there are a lot of these experiences are like with her, because, like where we live now, we had to move because we had a kid and we were living in an apartment and we loved our apartment, but that's just not gonna work for a new kid. So we're looking around, all around, and we're getting more and more honed in on what we want, because you know, there's a clock coming up because that place we were at, man, they're like sharks, they were like you gotta be out by this day. I wanna charge you $500 plus Extra plus the market rate of the rent. God damn man, just let it like. Can we end if we leave early? There's no early leave and nothing. They get every dime out of you.

Ed Latimore: 43:14

But we looked at this place and they said no pass, or we're living now. And so she wrote to them and said hey, what would you think about a cat? And they wrote back with the snarkiest reply. The guy said we got a few applications in already. We'll let you know if anything changes, all right. And the other one was saying we don't need to make a concession for you and your cat. We have enough people who don't have pets. Well, we said, all right, whatever. And then we go and look at this place. That was like it was gonna work, but neither of us would have been really happy with it. But it worked. And so we sent them a message and we said all right, we're in. They took a week to get back to us and then, when they finally got back to us, they said we're a bit worried about your income because you guys are both self-employed. She has a trial waiting to see business and I guess there anyway, you can like prove and like we can show you bank statements. I mean, I don't know what else you want. And they took Furby to get back to us.

Ed Latimore: 44:14

And while we're taking Furby to get back to us, her sister decides to help out and look and sends us the same place that we asked about the cat and we were like, oh you know, we already looked at it. And then Anna catches something on it. She goes I think this is a, it's written a little different. And so she writes a message to him and the guy goes yeah, I think I could make some work if it's just the cat. And I'm like what?

Ed Latimore: 44:38

So it was, it was a, it was a random. So it turns out somebody had took over the listing for made and no, and then her sister to happen around and they get involved, see the same place and it's perfect, like in terms of everything that we wanted it is, it is a perfect. And it only showed up like if we had got the place we wanted initially and they weren't like being weird about our self-employed income, we would have had a place to live, but we wouldn't have liked it. But now we're like, we really like it here and we're very happy. So there is just like these, like random coincidences Cause, like I don't, I never say I'm a non-believer right of ghosts or anything like that. What I say is that there's nothing in science that says they can't exist and I don't have any experience with the spooks, right. I just don't have it right. I do have a lot of experience with, like these weird little things that Don't ever happen again and the stars would have to be really perfect for them even to happen in the first place. When they do they, they benefit us and benefit me tremendously, and so I have to believe that I'm here for just so many ways. I mean just stories from addiction Like I, you know I've been pulled over.

Ed Latimore: 46:04

Oh, I was drinking and driving and pulled over on four separate occasions and in each time it just, you know, for whatever reason. They were like go home One. And then one of the times I was pulled over, the guy was like I've that took the test and he said you're probably a little over the limit, but we'll let you get out of here tonight. And I'm just like huh and and you know, good on them. You know that put for letting me go. I mean I may be bad, depending, but but I can't imagine.

Ed Latimore: 46:37

I have to believe that I've been, I've been spared from the worst parts of my decisions for a reason, and that's how. That, you know, ties into my spirituality. In that regard, I want to percent believe, because there's no explanation. Either that or I'm the luckiest mother for like on the planet, and I just don't buy it, like you know. So so that's, that's how that goes, man. I feel like my life is being guided, and the more I I don't want to say surrender to that guidance, the more I understand that there's a purpose and I move as if there's a purpose greater than just what I, what I want to get out of things, the more I seem to get from life. Yeah.

"Headhunter" Higgins: 47:20

I love all that. I think the, the synchronicities and the little small things, even though they don't seem, you know so supernatural or whatnot. At the time, like you said, you feel like it's being guided in a direction and, yeah, the more you are open to that, the more it kind of pops up and stuff and might kind of beat me to it to segue and into the ghosts and the weird stuff that we like to get into on this show. But I was going to say I don't know if you guys know that the word alcohol comes from the word alcohol or alcohol, which means body eating, spirit in Arabic, and they call, you know, like liquor stores or whatever will be, like wine and spirits, liquor. Yeah. So sometimes they think that you know there's a spirit associated with drinking and it'll, you know, make you do things you wouldn't normally do, as if you were under the influence of something else.

"Sawbuck" Mike: 48:07

But that's crazy.

"Headhunter" Higgins: 48:08

Kind of steer things in a different route. So I remember you said you were very anti college, but you have a physics degree, yeah, and so you you ended up changing your mind and getting back into that, so to kind of put a different spin on that, is there anything you've kind of learned while studying physics that might not be common knowledge or make you question the nature of reality or, you know, maybe preconceived notions that some people have?

"Sawbuck" Mike: 48:36

Like flat.

Ed Latimore: 48:40

You know I spend a lot of time.

"Headhunter" Higgins: 48:44

It's like okay, so I don't.

Ed Latimore: 48:45

I don't argue with people's opinions because it's your opinion. I don't even care if you present your opinion as fact, but once I recognize it's how you feel, I don't. I don't really care, right, because we all can feel how we want to feel. That's what makes the world great. But the flat earthers man, I go round for round because, because you know what we've known, the world has not been flat for a very long time, like a long time man. And so for like this to be the thing that people are one is like beyond me and they're really simple experiments you can do to kind of prove this. You know you got to understand math a little, but not not like higher level man. You know they did it in Egypt 1000 years ago, before there was technology, and then you can do the same thing Like it. All you have to do is like go to a basketball quarter and look at the shadow throughout the day and then go back and see it happen again and understanding what a cycle looks like when you graph it in two dimensions, you go, oh, we must be on a circle, but that's neither here nor there.

Ed Latimore: 49:56

As far as like things that I have seen, one of, the are learned related. That had an impact in my life when you, when you study, okay, so, so there's a relationship a square plus B squared equals C squared. A lot of people know that. It's like the Pythagorean theorem, and, and they, they know it, but they're like, but I was like, oh, what's that good for triangles? Well, well, it turns out that relationship shows up in everything from statistics to probability, to general relativity, to quantum mechanics, and it is the. You know, the first time you see like okay. The second time you see like huh, and you keep seeing it.

Ed Latimore: 50:45

And you realize that, like, the universe seems to be built on these, these fundamental laws that are like really weird, like really weird, like the way I'm going to one with this, other than just point out these, these, these laws are like the way electricity behaves. It are the way a charge behaves, and electricity is no different than the way mass behaves in a gravitational field, or the way a charge charge particle behaves in an electric field, is how particle of mass behaves in a gravitational field. Cool stuff, right. And I'm just like, what is this? It's like the universe was designed with intent there. They aren't just coincidences, because, you know, are they could be right? Of course they could be coincidences, are I could be reading too much into it? That's always possible, right? I don't think I am, and so what that makes me feel is that, even if you don't, if you don't have a thought process that says, you know God is a specific entity that exists in the sky or something like that, you know, it's very hard for me to bother that the universe is the universe we live in is just a random assortment that happened to spontaneously organize itself. It's like goes against everything we know. Like, like order does not happen spontaneously. Over time it's. It's the reverse right the things get disordered, and so you see that and you look at the universe and it is just it's hard for me to believe this universe wasn't this on.

Ed Latimore: 52:26

And then, from that point, I make the natural leap. There's got to be creator. Now, do I believe he's a, but never creator? I don't think he gives a damn. That's but that's my spiritual stuff, creeping in, I guess, my spiritual bias. But. But I definitely believe that there is a creator that is responsible to everything kind of flows from and, and whether you call that God or actually don't know what else you call it in terms of our language, you know, I hear people use the source, something like that. I've heard that, but that's all. That's the good deal. How, what we're physics and what I've seen, how that's helped me, really has led me to become a more spiritual person.

"Headhunter" Higgins: 53:07

Yeah, I love that because a lot of people seem to nowadays kind of, you know, draw a line between science and spirituality and consider them to totally separate things.

Ed Latimore: 53:16

But oh, that's crazy man. To consider those two things separate is is to not know both well enough at all. I love that.

Ed Latimore: 53:30

And I think, yeah, I think, I think that's a lot of times what what you see manifested, I mean, it's you know, when you, when you argue with somebody about the existence of God, right, whether they're agnostic or atheist, right, and there there are weaknesses in both arguments. But the point is that I'm bringing up is that they typically have not thought about the next they attack. They attack the straw man version of the argument, right, and the straw man version of the argument centers around, like you know, why would God let these things happen if he's benevolent? And I go, you know, I, in this respect, that grew in the grass. Tyson, he said that, like you gotta assume that he's either not all powerful or not all good. And I'm like, yeah, you know, the Bible even says he's not all good or powerful. I mean, the Old Testament Bible with God was raining bulls, don't be, it's crazy. But all of this is, I say, I'll say that, like, typically a person attacks that idea and they don't attack the real idea, which is, you know, is it possible that there's something greater than yourself that all of this comes from? That is an argument that stumps a lot of people who like to attack the idea of there not being a creator. And then when you do that, right even to make the argument oh, entropy, right, that's a fun one. You gotta at least understand entropy. Now you can come up with a different argument, but at least be able to counter my point to it, or don't? Let's not talk about a man in a sky, but let's just talk about why.

Ed Latimore: 55:16

Because then there was the argument that, like, a lot of evil was done in the name of religion. Well, a lot of good has been done in the name of it too. Like I'm not saying that it's good or bad, I'm saying that that's no reason to discard it, because you're not gonna discard the good stuff, right, you're gonna focus on the bad stuff, because that's what's been. When you approach it from this childlike thing, it's like when you're a kid and your mom forces you to go to church. You don't wanna go, so you think about it, so your arguments are childlike in that regard, that you only go.

Ed Latimore: 55:50

Well, I don't wanna deal with this, so I'm not gonna embrace it or understand it. And I'm not trying to convert anyone. That's never my goal, and I'm probably not even the best guy to even try and do that. All I like to do is present good arguments and look at the kind of the best possible way I could look at something and use it to benefit me, and I think there's a lot. I think religion has an incredible ability to do that and, lack of it, people gonna believe in something. So if you remove something that makes you become better, then you end up with people worshiping shit like the pasta man. I wish I was making that up.

"Sawbuck" Mike: 56:31

Yeah, I wish you were too Going back to what you were saying about. It looks like there's definitely an intelligent design behind this. You mentioned some of the things that kind of give you the reasoning, and another one is the golden ratio. We seem to see that everywhere in nature too, almost like it's a simulation. Have you ever thought about that at all?

Ed Latimore: 56:56

I have thought about the simulation theory, right, and I have arguments back and forth with this all the time. So, okay, if we are in a simulation or we're not, you know what's the implication of it, if we're in a simulation versus not, or rather, what can we do about. It Is how I look at the problem. Because, right, like, because to me, like arguing that there is an afterlife or something like that, or the existence of God, I think that's a much more interesting argument, because if there is God, right, yeah, maybe you should act a little better. Right, why you live.

Ed Latimore: 57:35

It's like the Faustian. What is it? The Faustian bargain, maybe, or something like that. Not where it goes if there isn't a God, pascal Wager, pascal Wager, that's what it is. I'm thinking of, the one where you, the Soviet Pascal Wager, exactly when, if there isn't a God and you act right, you know, the worst case scenario is that you act right, but if there is a God and you act like, yeah, well, there's going to be some hell to pay, literally afterlife. So that argument is interesting to me, okay, me too, but the simulation argument, what can I do about it?

Ed Latimore: 58:09

Like well, how will it change how I live, whether we're in one or not? Right, you know now?

"Headhunter" Higgins: 58:15

right.

Ed Latimore: 58:16

I try to think about it, there's nothing. So I think it's interesting in the sense that you know that that would explain some hard limits, right, like the speed of light seems to be a hard limit that we can't even get close to. But that's just me, you know. Never now thinking of interesting ideas, but I don't. I never give the simulation argument. Why do you give it much thought? Because there's no. There's no heart. It's like arguing the existence of God, but it removes the responsibility that will come with accepting or denying. Well, it removes kind of how your life would change if you, regardless of the with which concluded you reach. So I don't, I don't really think about it.

"Sawbuck" Mike: 59:04

I'm with you on the Pascal's Wager man. To me, that is the most satisfying and best argument to believe in a higher power cause. It's like, okay, I might as well, right, I got nothing to lose, so yeah.

Ed Latimore: 59:16

Nothing to lose.

"Sawbuck" Mike: 59:17

Nothing to lose, might as well.

Ed Latimore: 59:18

But you know what people feel like they lose. They feel like they lose the freedom to be degenerate ass.

"Sawbuck" Mike: 59:25

Well, like, that's how I feel.

Ed Latimore: 59:28

Whether it's that's accurate or not. I'm sure someone will hear this and be like you're wrong, right, and I mean I'm. It could be, it's my opinion. But I think, like when you are forced to take a responsibility, responsibility changes you, awareness changes you. You have to look at it. So it's like drinking.

Ed Latimore: 59:47

You know why drinking is appealing a lot of times? Because because when you're under the influence, your behavior is excused, or at least there's an excuse for it. There isn't an excuse for it. And whether they someone buys it, like if you run over somebody while you're drinking, versus sending a text, both of them done to the influence, one of them you can get a pass on the other, not so much right, but either way, you know we'd like to die. Well, jamie Foxx, on blaming on the alcohol. It removes responsibility because you numb yourself to the truth of your, your, your surroundings, your behavior. It's the same idea. If you get to go, there's, there's nothing greater, you go. Okay, whoa, let's just. Let's just, you know, run on a heat and stick treadmill and enjoy it at the client kind of deal, taking a responsibility for ourselves, cause none of it matters.

"Headhunter" Higgins: 1:00:38

Spirit of alcohol. That's our excuse. Sorry, it was the spirits. That's great. It's been a great talk. Thanks, ed.

"Sawbuck" Mike: 1:00:47

No, this was great.

Ed Latimore: 1:00:48

Thank you guys. I don't know. You know it was funny man For all of 2023, I was, I was working on my book and I said I'm not doing podcasts, so so my wife is like I was about to cook some steaks and she was like, don't you got a podcast? I was like, oh, that's right, I'm off my. So you know, cause? Cause, my, my, my motto I love talking to people and I think I think that's a lot to be gained, so I just, you know, just kind of going anyone show. I'll sometimes do research, but not usually, and and I'm always happy when it turns out, there'll be such a great conversation and this was a great conversation.

"Sawbuck" Mike: 1:01:25

So yeah, we covered a lot of different things there. Dude I I really liked it. He seems like a dude that I could definitely like go smoke a joint with and just chill.

"Headhunter" Higgins: 1:01:33

Yeah, it's super easy to talk to and I like when we have the rather intellectual guess sign that we'll kind of confirm or play along with some of the wilder topics or you know there's in a similar trying to thought of other guests and stuff. That just it's more digestible for skeptical minds, if you will.

"Sawbuck" Mike: 1:01:52

Yeah, there's no fluff to him. He he is. He's not a guy that believes in a lot of crazy shit. You know I threw out the flatter thing and you know he left it off. And, yeah, you know I'm with him on a lot of things. I like a lot of his thoughts on addiction. I think he is in the minority about being able just to drop it cold turkey like that, and he realized that at a young age. So I think you know, as he even said, he was lucky in that regard. So, yeah, I really liked a lot of what he was putting out there. Dude, smart guy loved to have him back on when his books out and he's doing that massive media blitz that you got to do for a book at Lattimore Good fucking guy, like we said earlier on trying to build a community of like-minded individuals. So if you want to be a part of that, you could be one of the very first conspiracy and chill syndicate members by going to Patreon and joining the syndicate, something you can do to help the podcast out tremendously.

Ed Latimore: 1:02:46

And it doesn't cost you anything.

"Sawbuck" Mike: 1:02:48

Just go on whatever platform you're listening to us on, give us a five star review, even if you haven't listened to us yet. Just go and give us one, because you're probably gonna feel that way in the end, anyway. That's what I'm thinking. So, yeah, do all those things Like us, love us, follow us, subscribe, x, instagram, youtube, all that good shit and what else, brother.

"Headhunter" Higgins: 1:03:09

No, that's pretty much it. If you are enjoying it, then that's our transactional ask. You get some fun conversations and some good information. We get our five star review. That's our mutual deal here, huh.

"Sawbuck" Mike: 1:03:22

That's fair, and you could also be one of the very first conspiracy and chill syndicate members because we have a free tier. So I mean it's like why the fuck not? Why wouldn't you kind of like Pascal's wager that we talked about a little bit earlier in the conversation with Ed? Right, it's a win-win to stay away from Chow molesters internal music, music, music, music, music, music music.