#10 | Chris Leben | Fighting, Refereeing, and Out Of Body Experiences | "There's Obviously Aliens, our galaxy is insanely huge, were just one planet"

Chris "The Crippler" Leben stops by for a chat that'll knock the stereotypes out of the park and into the Octagon. With a wit as sharp as his hooks, Chris takes us on a whirlwind tour of his experiences on the show that started it all, The Ultimate Fighter. The nostalgia hits hard as we reminisce about the iconic moments and the evolution of fighters from the show's golden era to the nuanced athletes of today.

Our conversation takes an unexpected detour into the realm of the supernatural, with "The Crippler" recounting an 'out of body' experience that changed his perception of reality. We examine the intricate dance of selecting the right relationships in the martial arts and the weighty responsibilities of officiating in the fight game. Chris offers a blueprint for navigating the personal and professional aspects of life in combat sports.

Wrapping up with musings on the significance of last names and a playful jab at the lore behind Apple's iconic logo.

Transcript

Mike Straus: 0:00

Anticon. So, uh, we got Chris the Crippler Leibn. He's a fucking legend. That's cool to talk to Dude. I love his voice. Does that make me gay?

Tom Higgins: 0:27

No, he's got a funny, cool voice for sure. He's an absolute legend, Someone I grew up watching, grew up admiring, was always entertained by. I always thought he was a cool guy, a bit of a wild man, so I knew this was going to be an appropriate and good one. Yeah, I enjoyed the talk with him. I think that any of our listeners who are familiar with MMA should know damn well who he is. Oh yeah, Even if they don't, still a good guy. Cool guy to talk to a legend in his own right.

Mike Straus: 0:57

And even if MMA or fighting isn't your cup of tea, it's still one that you will enjoy because he talks a little bit about some of his experiences that he had while he was in a coma out of body experiences. He is very smart, you know. I think that's a misconception that some people have about fighters is that they're just, they're stupid because they fight. Me personally, covering the sport professionally for six years, the majority, the vast majority of of guys that compete inside of the combat sports domain I found to be rather intelligent, so I don't find that stereotype to be particularly true at all.

Tom Higgins: 1:36

Oh yeah, these are some of my favorite guys to talk to. Is, just like you know, or even just after training whatever the whole martial arts and fighting wrestling community, just bros being bros. So it's definitely a type of guest and conversation I like.

Mike Straus: 1:52

You say it all the time, dude, but it's so true. It's so true is that there's a crossover between guys that are willing to get punched in the face for a living and people being willing and open minded to different and unique ideas. I don't know where the crossover is, but it's obvious that there is one.

Tom Higgins: 2:12

You know, yeah, I think it comes down to surrender to the unknown and constantly seeking the I guess, the truth, if you will, and what's the best way to do things, honestly assessing yourself and your abilities and breaking things down. There's no room for bullshit when the consequences get in.

Mike Straus: 2:29

your ass kicked, Chris Lieben was a cast member on the very first Ultimate Fighter. I mean dude let me pull up the cast of the first Ultimate Fighter.

Tom Higgins: 2:42

It wasn't Mike.

Mike Straus: 2:43

Mike Swick on there too.

Tom Higgins: 2:44

Yeah, I think Keith Jardine might have been.

Mike Straus: 2:46

No, I don't think Jardine was till later. But maybe you're right, Maybe I'm wrong. If I am wrong, it'll be the first time I've ever been wrong. I was mistaken once. You know, what I heard today for the very first time and I thought was fucking hilarious, dude was how did it go? It was like this when I go to the bathroom, I check the toilet paper because I don't trust shit. Isn't that good. Yeah, I thought damn, that was clever. Hey, why don't I go to topology? I want the topology to check the fucking Ultimate Fighter one.

Tom Higgins: 3:16

It is interesting although I guess the roster was not very deep back then and the fans grew familiar with all the cast members but so many dudes from that first season ended up just being in the UFC anyway, even though they didn't win the season. Okay, yo you're right. I don't want to have a great season or a great career, rather, Dude, that was like the first.

Mike Straus: 3:35

I want to say like first eight to 10 seasons and then after that it kind of got watered down, to be honest with you. I mean there was don't get me wrong, there was good fighters sprinkled in throughout, even up to this point, even up to this day. But you know, we just talked to Kurt Hallabaugh, who just won 31. Right, you don't fucking stud. So here, this is going to be fun. Do you remember who the coaches were?

Tom Higgins: 3:55

Chuck and Randy.

Mike Straus: 3:56

There you go. Now listen to this dude. Chuck had the first pick. He picked Bobby Southworth. Talk about a bust.

Tom Higgins: 4:05

Yeah, I was going to say I don't even know who that is.

Mike Straus: 4:08

Koutour's first pick is another buzz. It's Nate Rock-Aquari. Remember Nate.

Tom Higgins: 4:13

Quarry, yeah, he went on to have an OK career though.

Mike Straus: 4:17

Yeah, decent. Chuck Liddell's second pick went on to have a better career than Nate Quarry. Josh Kostchak Remember Kostchak? Of course. Do you remember Paul Daly when he snuck him after the fight? And that's why Paul Daly will never fight in the UFC, ever again. Check with hilarious. And then Randy Couture Do you know who? His second pick was? No, motherfucking Chris Leven. And then Chuck Liddell, heading into the third pick, picked the nightmare Diego Sanchez. Couture came back with Stefan Bonner, and then Liddell in the fourth picked Sam Hogar. Yeah, exactly my thought. Who the fuck is Hogar? I mean, I don't even remember him, to be honest with you, and I kind of pride myself in knowing you know a lot of dudes that fight.

Tom Higgins: 5:05

Oh yeah, it's just uh. Season one for me was a little before I first started watching. I think it was what like 2005. I probably didn't start watching UFC.

Mike Straus: 5:16

Yes 2005 dude.

Tom Higgins: 5:18

But I know exactly when I started watching was 2007 or eight because I was in. Well, no, it would have been 2007 because I was in middle school and I graduated middle school in 2007. So maybe, like 2006, 2007 is when I first uncovered it and it was the season that Nate Diaz was on that BJ. Penn and Jens Prober were the coaches, so that was what, like season five or something.

Mike Straus: 5:42

Yeah, it sounds about right. I have to look it up to be exact.

Tom Higgins: 5:44

But yeah, you know I used to work for BJ Penn. You said you used to work for BJ Penn. What on BJPenncom?

Mike Straus: 5:49

Yeah he signed he signed my checks though, which was kind of cool, you know, and I mean it's not like I fucking like I worked in the same office as, or anything but maybe we get him on here.

Tom Higgins: 5:59

That's another uh pioneer wild man. Oh, dude, that would be. He was working for office in Hawaii and he was going off on corruption and whatnot. So I have no shortage of uh things to talk about.

Mike Straus: 6:10

Oh, dude, that would be a dream one. So then, liddell, he picked Sam who the hell are you, Hoger? And then Koutour came back, and his fourth pick was Mike's wick. And then, in the fifth round, chuck Liddell selected Forrest Griffin, the eventual winner, and Koutour came back with Lodun Sinclair. And then Liddell came back with Florian, koutour with Alex Caralexus, and then Liddell Alex Shonover, koutour Chris Sanford, liddell's last pick was Josh Rafferty and Koutour was Jason Dacker. So I mean, all in all, dude, over half of the original cast went on to have fucking really good careers.

Tom Higgins: 6:56

Definitely. I feel like, uh, the season that I started watching too, was the same. Let's see. I'll pull up the uh, the cast from season five. So I know they had Joe Lodun, which was funny because he beat he beat Jen's pulver in a fight before that season. Happened Like they fought in the sea and Joe Lodun was released. So imagine the dynamic for both of them Joe Lodun beat the opposing coach and Jen's pulver lost to one of the contestants on the show. So that was probably an interesting dynamic. And uh, yeah, you had, uh, obviously, nate Diaz. Uh-huh, you had Ray Maynard, joe Lodun.

Mike Straus: 7:32

You say Gray Maynard.

Tom Higgins: 7:34

Yeah, cole Miller, manny Gamburian those are some of the main ones Matt Wyman, rob Emerson I just remember watching it for the first time and finally, you know, kind of like I'd grown out of WWE a little bit by then, you know, knowing it was fake and just not really caring anymore, then finding the UFC and being like, oh shit, you know this, this is badass. But some of the fights on the Ultimate Fighter, you know some of them are a little dry. They're not as high level as some of the other ones, especially with the. You know the level of the sport back then and the no commentary thing. They were in the house because you know they're just doing the fights live in the house, there's no commentary.

Tom Higgins: 8:13

And I just remember my two younger brothers they were not having it, they were still more WWE. They're like what is? This is so boring, like what is going on? Like these guys are just laying here and you just hear BJ Penn and Jen's pulver screaming and these guys maybe having maybe a little bit of a lackluster fight. And yeah, they were not a fan at first.

Mike Straus: 8:32

Graymator and Frankie Edgar. Those are some of my all time favorite fights ever and it's sad because those fights could never happen today, because the damage that Frankie sustained in that first round he dropped like six times dude got back up, but then he goes on to win. Well, the first one is a draw, then they rematch and he goes on to fucking beat him dude. Oh no real those fights, bro.

Tom Higgins: 8:58

He's one of the guys whose careers aged on me pretty well. Like I didn't like him back in the day and I was, I was a fan of BJ, so when he was beating BJ's ass, it was like, oh fuck, frankie, yeah. And as he kept going throughout time, like his career aged well, same with Bisping, I used to hate Bisping. I even hated the Diaz bros at a time and they ended up becoming some of my favorites.

Mike Straus: 9:16

So Bisping was easy to hate, especially, you know. He won the ultimate fighter and he was just a cocky British fuck. When he was younger he was easy to dislike. But you're right, something happened. Something happened after Dan Henderson dropped the fucking bomb on him. He dropped a lot of that ego, it seemed, you know, and became a different kind of guy. Just seems like he. He really matured. You know the operative turn and heal, yeah right, he went babyface. So yeah, chris Leibn dude, chris Leibn was the second pick for Randy Couture in the very first season of the ultimate fighter and we just talked to him.

Chris Leben: 9:52

And now the listeners can hear it. Mike, what's going on?

Mike Straus: 9:55

What's going on, brother? I appreciate you doing this, yep.

Tom Higgins: 9:58

I don't know if Mike told you this is a it's called conspiracy and chill. So we talk about all types of stuff. We've had a couple of fighters on here get into some weird stuff and I'm sure you'll be down to talk some weird stuff with us too.

Mike Straus: 10:10

Before we get weird, I want to talk about MMA. You're a referee and a judge. Now You're ultimate fighter one alumni. If Chris Leibn today could go back to the Chris Leibn and ultimate fighter one and say, hey, man, in 2023, you're going to be a referee and a judge. What would that Chris Leibn say?

Chris Leben: 10:26

I, you know, I think I'd probably believe it. Yeah, I mean, you know, certainly go going back to school wasn't really in the cards for me. So, you know, staying in the sport that I love, you know I could see that.

Mike Straus: 10:39

Your time in the ultimate fighter. You look at it with fond memories.

Chris Leben: 10:43

Yeah, yeah, I mean I kind of look at it like and like you look at boot camp. You know, certainly wouldn't want to do it again, but you know, absolutely an amazing experience, Glad I did it, Glad I went through it. It was huge, for you know my career, the UFC and everything else. So so, yeah, I look at it with fond memories.

Mike Straus: 11:06

And then the BKFC. That was kind of a natural progression to bare knuckle boxing. Did you enjoy your time doing that? I think what you had? Four fights total.

Chris Leben: 11:15

Yeah, yeah, I did, I did, I was fun, it was good. You know, a lot of things have changed in my life, you know, and it felt good to come back to combat sports and perform well.

Tom Higgins: 11:28

What would you say for the mentality shift from the early days of MMA, like when you were on the ultimate fighter, where it was kind of wild, wild less than everyone was figuring it out, and then you fought all the way through, you know, like the changes into the more modern era of UFC, and then going back and doing bare knuckle now, being a ref and judge, like, what is that perspective shift been like?

Chris Leben: 11:51

You know, I mean, obviously the sport, just like me, has matured a lot. So you know it was very different when I first started. You know, I was lucky enough to be one of the first members at Team Quest, which was really one of the first gyms. You know, there was maybe three or four gyms at that time that were kind of doing everything for the purpose of MMA. You know, we were putting our boxing, our kickboxing, our wrestling, our jujitsu all together in one room, you know. But even then we were still bringing in a coach for jujitsu, a coach for fighters. You know, nowadays, you know, obviously guys come into the gym with the idea that, hey, I'm going to do MMA and they start training. They start training MMA and mixing everything together from day one, you know. So obviously there's that. You know there's the mentality of how we train.

Chris Leben: 12:44

You know, back in the day, you know, team Quest was just a room full of wrestlers. So we tried to run an MMA practice like you run a wrestling practice which is 100%, and you know, 100% doesn't really work great. You know, we found out later with experience that 100% with four ounce gloves, training every day is a tough thing to do. So you know, people have gotten, you know, the training, the skill levels certainly gotten a lot higher. The instruction, the coaches are much better. The outlook, the view on training itself has changed a lot. You know, and I think all that reflects when you watch the sport today. You know, back in the day certainly was exciting because, you know, nobody was holding anything back. A lot of those fights were just people guys just slugging it out. You know I'm certainly guilty of that. Nowadays, you see, it's a little bit more of a chess match which some people like, some people don't like. But hey, listen, that's, you know, that's the progression of the sport.

Tom Higgins: 13:51

As for the slugging it out, I think that's why you were always a fan favorite and, man, I remember that Akiyama fight. Watching that as like a high schooler, that's definitely a fight that stands out in my mind. Or the Terry Martin one. Do you have a favorite, favorite fight from your career, manderley?

Mike Straus: 14:07

Silva.

Chris Leben: 14:08

You know yeah.

Mike Straus: 14:09

I mean it's tough.

Chris Leben: 14:10

I mean, van De Le was you know, he was my hero. That was a fight I asked for for a long time before I finally was able to get it, so beating him was huge, you know. That being said, it wasn't a long fight, you know. So you know Akiyama, you know, went. You know I think there was maybe 12 or 14 seconds left in the fight. You know when I won. So I think, looking back through my career, you know every fight at the time is the most important fight, is the biggest fight of your life, you know, and that you know. When you look back at your body of work, you know, yeah, there's some that stick out more than others, but you know, it's really just a progression and a growth. And I can kind of see that when I look back to my early UFC fights and then, as my career progressed, how my style changed. But yeah, if I had to pick just one, I'd probably stay Van De Le.

Mike Straus: 15:05

If you didn't choose the route of combat sports, what do you think you would have chosen life?

Chris Leben: 15:12

Oh man, that's a tough one. I'm sure I would have ended up being some sort of you know, an electrician or some sort of construction fabrication type job. I mean, that's really kind of the path I was on.

Mike Straus: 15:26

Like a tradesman.

Chris Leben: 15:28

Yeah, yeah, something along those lines, you know. You know, if I was lucky, you know, if I wasn't lucky maybe it was gas station or God knows what would have happened. You know, with partying and everything else that was going on in my life, I didn't have combat sports at least straightening up and pull me back together so I could train for a fight. Who knows, might be pretty, really, anyone's guess.

Mike Straus: 15:52

I hear you. You know you're exactly one month older than me. I admire what you've been through and what you've overcame because I have a similar, similar backstory to, so you kind of were always an inspiration to me in that regard. But I want to kind of get a little weird. Maybe, as Tom said, we kind of delve into a little bit of out of the norm stuff. So I wanted to ask you, man, do you believe in, like big foot UFOs? Is there anything that people might be surprised to find out that you believe?

Chris Leben: 16:20

Yeah, I mean, I don't know if people will be surprised. Yeah, yeah, I'm pretty sure, with the evidence available today, that there, that there's, you know, there's obviously aliens. Our galaxy is insanely huge. We're just one planet, but they're probably here visiting us. More than likely, I would think, as far as big foot and a lot of this monster goes. Probably not.

Mike Straus: 16:46

Have you ever seen a ghost or do you believe in ghosts? Do you have any crazy stories?

Chris Leben: 16:49

No stories? Yeah, yeah, I got a few. I got a few, yeah, I think. So I think, listen, I think there's a lot of a lot of weird shit, a lot of shit that we don't understand, a lot of shit that science maybe hasn't developed the tool to monitor and measure yet, so a lot of people think it just doesn't exist. But you know, kind of my thought is, listen, if everything you know is vibration and frequency, like my radio has got a lot of different channels on it, you know, our reality, our frequency or whatever.

Chris Leben: 17:23

That's just one channel. I'm sure there's probably a thousand other channels that are overlapping, overlapping. You know where we are right now?

Mike Straus: 17:34

That's a good way of looking at it with the channels. Man, I never really thought about it like that.

Tom Higgins: 17:38

Sometimes you get the little static interference from the other channels bleeding through a little bit and that's what spirits is.

Chris Leben: 17:45

That's exactly it. I've certainly had my share of that where, you know, maybe through, through meditation or something else, I do some lucid dreaming, that sort of thing, where you're you kind of shift and you start to drift over to another station, another frequency, you know, and you're pulling stuff from there, and yeah, I think that's a real thing.

Tom Higgins: 18:11

What would you say is your most profound experience that you can't explain?

Chris Leben: 18:15

as far as that goes, Well, I can say with certainty that your consciousness does not need your physical body to survive. I've had multiple out of body experiences, particularly when I was, you know, in the hospital on a respirator, in a coma, and I was floating around the the hospital, in my hospital room and witnessing things you know. Now, that's one of those things where they say maybe it's, you know. Sure, a lot of people say maybe it's a hallucination, but the fact is, you know, studies show people that go through that their, their perception of reality has changed forever, and so that's my truth, that's what I've been through, and so that that, I think, took a lot of the fear of death away. You know, I can't say for certain if your body is dead forever will your consciousness survive, but I'm pretty sure it does, because it doesn't need to be in your physical body to be active.

Mike Straus: 19:23

I'm with you. I too was in a coma from from drug use. I wasn't out of body, I didn't have one of those experiences, but I heard conversations that I was able to explain, once I woke up to my family, that they were having in the room while I was supposedly in this coma. So yeah, it's a. What is that? You know that's, that's crazy stuff, man. There's definitely, there's definitely more to this life than we know.

Chris Leben: 19:46

Yeah, yeah, you know and listen since the beginning of time. It's always been been that way, you know? I don't know. You probably still believe the earth is flat right with the center of the universe.

Mike Straus: 19:58

No, I'm not a flat earth the sun orbits us.

Chris Leben: 20:01

It's always, you know. We always say we've got it figured out, we know it now, and then a few years down the road and science is all it's time to. I read a lot on physics and listen, they don't. You know, the big bang was the big thing for a long time and now, with this new telescope, they're telling us huh, probably not Now. I guess maybe we were wrong. But well, we've been teaching in school like it was a certainty. You know, man is only this old intelligence and new discoveries come out.

Chris Leben: 20:29

You know, we've been teaching in schools written in all the books, and you know, well, that's kind of wrong to you know, and it takes a while for you know, for the books and the general knowledge base to catch up with with, with where we're at and what's coming out as far as you know, scientific advancements and everything else. And I, yeah. So listen, if people can't see it, they can't hold it, they can't put their finger on it to them. It's not real. That's the mentality that we have in our Western culture today. And you know, it's just tough because there's there's, there's so much more in it. Just people are so unwilling to be open at least to the idea to say, hey, we, we're not sure, we can't, we can't prove or disprove this, so therefore it's still on the table. You know, and that's the way I look at it Tell it's definitively proven or deep proven it's, it's, it's on the table as a possibility.

Tom Higgins: 21:32

I think there's a lot of crossover when it comes to a lot of combat sports athletes and, you know, open minded or alternative thinking, because it kind of takes a unique mind to take that path. Anyway, there is no bullshit when it comes to fighting in martial arts. You have your, your know, your theories or your, your ideas, your hypothesis, like, oh, I could do that, like I'll just, you know, I'll push the guy off of me, I'll just stand up Like, or I think I could take them and like you learn. You get your hypothesis checked real quick and you're always looking for better ways to do things and I just find that a lot of fighters and martial arts tend to be a little more open minded due to that.

Chris Leben: 22:12

Yeah, I mean, I think so. I think since the dawn of time martial arts and spiritual development have kind of gone hand in hand.

Mike Straus: 22:23

that you know, they really do you know, I mean it's it's.

Chris Leben: 22:28

It's it's that that drive to always be improving. Because, listen, I'm, I'm 43 years old. I am no longer getting better. I am not going to be better tomorrow than I was today. It's just the way it is. I'm getting older, I'm slowing down, but still I'm on the mat every single day. I'm trying to learn new techniques. You know I'm trying to grow and develop it, at least slow the decay. You know now, now that being said, that that mentality of being a martial artist, when you take that to your regular life, just because we turn 18 or 21 does not make us an adult, does not mean mean we're growing. I'm continuously trying to trying to grow as a person, mentally, spiritually, physically. You know everywhere that I can. So I take that same mentality from from martial arts and bring it into you know my, my life, my spirituality, how, how I interact with other people. And I think that I'm not the only person. I think that the majority of martial artists do that.

Tom Higgins: 23:34

Yeah, absolutely. That's why I love this platform that Mike and I have and that we get guys like yourself on here. That being said, if you could like panel to elaborate off what Mike asked earlier, if you could go back to Chris Leven who was just kind of starting off earlier in your career, what things outside of like training or training methods or techniques, maybe more of the mental or the spiritual things, would you? What kind of advice would you give?

Chris Leben: 24:03

Well, I think the first and the biggest one would be everybody is not your friend. You know a lot of times, you know when I went fight to my phone and ring and I think people were my friend and I would lose and it wouldn't ring anymore. You know, you know that hurt me. You know multiple times. You know a lot of people that really weren't benefiting me in any way and this sounds very selfish. We have to be selfish to martial, martial artists at this point in my life.

Chris Leben: 24:40

Listen, if you're not bringing something to the table, you're not in my circle, you're not in my group like you. Like, if you're my friend, that's because you meet me. You know, you train with me, you spar with me, you meet me. You go to the gym. We got kids the same age, we go out, we do stuff together, like that.

Chris Leben: 24:56

Like, if you're bringing nothing to the equation, like I'm not, you know, if you're just trying to ride off me or back in the day, be part of that stand next to the lights, you can get catch a little bit of that limelight like that got me a lot of trouble over the years and you know hindsight's 2020, but it certainly made me to be a little bit jaded now whenever it comes to new people. You know, in my life, like, yes, I have. I know a million people, I'm on good terms with a million people, I have a ton of acquaintances, I have five close friends and I'm not, you know, really I'm not taking applicants. You know, like, like there's people that they just kind of come in, they fit well, you know it works, and then eventually down the road those people end up becoming my friends. But you know, when I was young I thought everybody was my friend and I was a poor judge of character. So I think that would be the biggest advice I would give myself.

Tom Higgins: 26:02

And I think that's the best advice I would give myself of that, to stay in kind of in the conspiracy realm. But with the martial arts too, maybe not as paranormal or weird Was there ever any? You know like in your judge yourself now to malpractice. Or you know shady business deals. Or you know almost like maybe not fight fixing, but you know preferential treatment came across your career.

Chris Leben: 26:28

Listen, guys, I work for the man, I am an employee of the commission. I cannot be pulled whatsoever, and any sort of conversation along those lines.

Mike Straus: 26:43

What do you like doing better? Do you like refing or judging better?

Chris Leben: 26:46

Now that's a tough one. That's a tough one because I really do enjoy them both. Initially I really loved refringing more, but as time has gone on I've really come to think that, you know, judging in our sport deserves a lot of attention, right, you know. And being part of that and making that decision that is going to impact a fighter's career, their income, their livelihood, I think is a very, very important you know. It needs to be the right decision, you know. So, both refing and judging, I take them both extremely seriously, you know, and I think that you know refing, you know, my number one goal is fighter safety and then second is giving the fighter every chance they have to win that fight. I don't want to be seen as a referee until I have to be. That's the way I view refing, like judging, I don't care if I'm the odd judge out, I want to be right. You know, and it can be very, very difficult sometimes, especially when you're sitting from three different angles.

Chris Leben: 28:08

I'll give you an example. I had a fight, a cage warriors fight, but you know there was a head kick from. You know this was the only significant strike of the fight and the guy kind of wavers had, like that didn't hit me. From my angle it looked completely blocked. When you know, when Andy Foster challenged me to go back and watch that fight again, which I did I went back, watched the fight again. I was wrong. I was wrong. It looked like he blocked it, but it didn't kind of hit him in the face. I was facing their back, you know, and that was the most significant strike in the fight. So it can't be perfect, but you got to be pretty fucking close all the time and that's my goal as a judge.

Tom Higgins: 28:52

Both of those are very hard and thankless jobs. Like nobody's out here commending the judges or refs for doing a good job. It's only you only get highlighted when people have a problem with the vision over this.

Chris Leben: 29:04

You got to have thick skin for either job, because you do a thousand fights right, nobody says anything. You do one fight, you fuck up one time. So you know, get ready for a couple of rough weeks.

Mike Straus: 29:18

Just the fact that you were willing to go back and rewatch the fight and admit that you were wrong, that right there, shows that you're a standup guy and I think that, as time goes on, I think we're going to see more guys kind of doing what you're doing. I believe you're a pioneer in that regard.

Chris Leben: 29:34

When I fought, whether I won or lost, I went back with my coach. I watched the fight. I said what worked, what didn't work, what needs improvement. When I referee and judge, I do the same thing. Why would I not?

Tom Higgins: 29:47

Yeah well, put Any times that in your career that you could look back and kind of see a referee or a fight where you felt like the judges did get it wrong in yours, where I mean no, I've never won Every fight I ever lost.

Chris Leben: 30:01

it went to the fucking judges. Got it wrong, okay, and now that I'm a judge I have learned that. But regardless of which way I go, I got it wrong according to a lot of fucking people. You know, it's just, it's the nature of the beast. I'm fine with that, as long as in my heart I scored that fight correctly. I've certainly been mad at the judges through my career. Of course, I don't think that there's a veteran fighter out there that hasn't. You know, like Bert Watson says, every free fight he's ever done. Don't leave it to the judges, because they will break your heart. They will break your heart if you leave it to those judges, and that you know. As a judge, I'm going to tell you that's the truth. Don't try to win based on the cards.

Tom Higgins: 30:54

I think it's very unique in the ways that you can win that. It has the, you know, like the knockout or the submission, the finishing ability, like in basketball or football or something like that. There's no like finishing move that ends the game immediately. You've got to play the duration of the game until the time ends and there's also no judge factor where if it does go to the whole time, then it's in the hands of someone else to decide who won and lost. So that's pretty unique as well about fighting, and I think people overlook that because, like you were saying to it, those decisions really do affect everything about that person's livelihood and career trajectory and stuff like that. What do you think could be improved upon as far as refing or judging or maybe any rules that you have problem with?

Chris Leben: 31:42

No, we're. We have these big trainings where everybody gets together John McCarty, herb Dean these guys are actively, you know, working with the California State Athletic Commission, the Nevada State Athletic Commission and we're working to tweak the rules and change the rules and there's little things that are coming up, like recently. One thing we talked about that's going to implement is that it really is a rough ring, not supposed to stand guys up or break up the fight of the fighters in an, you know, an extremely dominant position. But but we've had a couple of fights now where a guy's got on somebody's back and the guy stood up and he just held on the back for five minutes. I mean so so that we're talking about there. That's going to be a rule change where, hey, if they're on the back, we can take them off If they're not doing anything and they're not working to progress or finish the fight. You need, you know, number one, we're entertainers, you need to be, you need to be entertaining, you need to be working to finish the fight.

Chris Leben: 32:40

And I believe that I believe that If they're taking their ticket, they don't want to see you holding on to somebody's back while they're standing for five minutes. You know other things. You know there's other ideas. I've heard that I can't say that I agree or I totally disagree with you know.

Chris Leben: 32:57

One was, you know what, if we post scores every round, who knows what the score is going into? You know, hey, if you won one loss one, you know. Or hey, you lost the last two rounds. Now you need to get a fucking, you have to get a knockout. You know, with that, with that change, I mean in basketball or football, you know, going in the fourth quarter, this teams up by eight. You know, we know what we got to do. That's one idea. Maybe making every fight five rounds, I think would be better for the penalties when you take a point away and a three round fight, that is devastating and it causes a lot of draws. What if they were three minute rounds? You did five threes or you did five fives for title fights. Now then they're faster, they're higher pace, the fighter's going a little bit more rest time.

Chris Leben: 33:53

I don't know, something to think about.

Mike Straus: 33:55

Before we let you go, I want to ask you about the gym and how's everything been going with the gym?

Chris Leben: 34:01

Killing it, killing it. We're doing great. I've got Barry Hachita, adcc Hall of Famer you know my coach as our Jiu-Jitsu instructor. He's got a huge following on the Jiu-Jitsu side. We got a ton of people competing all the time. You know one of my fighters, jordan Bailey, and I run the boxing and kickboxing side. We've got guys fighting every weekend, you know, doing smokers and whatnot. So we're a highly competitive gym. We've got, you know, a few hundred members now and, yeah, the sky's the limit. We're kind of running out of space where we're at, but that's basically our biggest obstacle.

Mike Straus: 34:43

That's a good one to have though. Yeah, is there anything that you want to plug or promote before we let you go?

Chris Leben: 34:50

Yeah, I mean like Jim. You know if anybody's in San Diego, whether you're a jitsu guy and you're on vacation, a striker, you're on vacation, or you recently moved here the training center, you know we're on all the social medias. Just Google us, we're right there, you know. Come in, pop in, hang out, say hi, come and do a class train. We'd love to have you.

Tom Higgins: 35:13

I think I'll pick you up on that. I might be in California in May, so I would love to Beautiful let's do it.

Mike Straus: 35:20

Thank you so much, brother.

Chris Leben: 35:21

All right, guys. You thanks for having me.

Mike Straus: 35:23

So that was Chris. Do you know? His middle name is Cyrus, chris Cyrus.

Chris Leben: 35:28

Leven Interesting.

Mike Straus: 35:29

I don't know neither until I was doing some research.

Tom Higgins: 35:33

What's your middle name?

Mike Straus: 35:34

Anthony.

Tom Higgins: 35:36

Minus Charles Really.

Mike Straus: 35:38

Yeah, very distinguished.

Tom Higgins: 35:40

Thomas Charles Higgins does sound a lot more elegant and sophisticated than I actually am.

Mike Straus: 35:47

Sounds like you should have a monocle Right. Yeah, like it sounds like you know. Sounds like you fucking should have an estate.

Tom Higgins: 35:54

Yeah, you know, sounds a little more freemasonic than I'm comfortable with. Though it does, it does sound very freemasonic.

Mike Straus: 36:00

Now mine's a little bit trickier because check this out so my name is Strauss, but my stepfather married my mother and adopted me, so my name, my birth name, is not Strauss, my birth name from my mother, who never got married to my original father, so I never took on his name. My mother's maiden name, which was my original name until I was about nine years old, when my stepfather adopted me, was Moreta, m-a-r-e-t-t-a, because I'm mostly Italian, so it's Michael.

Chris Leben: 36:33

Anthony.

Mike Straus: 36:33

Moreta. However, if I do go back and I take my father's name, who they didn't even let me even fucking know it they told me he was dead up until about 10 years ago just because he's not a good guy, dude, but his name is Devatorio, which is pretty fucking cool, if I say so myself, so my name would have been Michael Anthony Devatorio.

Tom Higgins: 36:57

It would have been kind of like you would have belonged on the Sopranos. That's what I'm saying. Right, that's a very yeah.

Mike Straus: 37:02

So I go from having like a fucking German, german-jewish last name in Strauss from Moreta to Devatorio, like it's just what the fuck. It's just the name.

Tom Higgins: 37:14

Whole surname thing and family history. That's something that I love to deep dive, like when I meet someone or I'm friends with someone or I don't know one of my students or whoever, I'll even look into it for them and see what their name originally meant. Or like if their family crest traces back to something like I love using those to deep dive history, like I've gone back as far as finding as many surnames in my family as I can, like you know grandmothers, great-grandmothers, great-grandfathers, all the way down to like eight names. As far as I've gone and looked and found what every one of them means.

Tom Higgins: 37:50

It's interesting have you ever looked at the meanings of the last names.

Mike Straus: 37:54

With some I have. That's more of your strength. You're more of like. You like to find the origin of names and like the word play and like the numerical values and shit. Not that I don't like that stuff I do. It's just you've been studying and looking into that for a lot longer than me, so you're way more knowledgeable in those areas than I am. What?

Tom Higgins: 38:16

I do, I do, I deep dive right now.

Mike Straus: 38:19

How do you spell Devatorio? It's D-E-V-I-T-O-R-R-I-O.

Tom Higgins: 38:25

Devatorio surname meaning. So any of the listeners out there, like I said, this is something I'm interested in doing myself is looking into your surname and checking where it originates, what the meaning of it is, or looking at your family crest, seeing, like, what royal house or maybe what royal family you might have been part of or descended from, and most European last names have some sort of meaning. I have found, though, that a lot of Italian ones don't, or, like I just can't find it Like mostly anything German, irish, scottish, polish or even Spanish names. They'll have a meaning, like whether it means like the landscape that they were from, or the profession or the nature of the person, or the appearance Check Leibn. Oh yeah, that's a good one.

Mike Straus: 39:18

L-E-B-E-N.

Tom Higgins: 39:20

Yep. It says possibly a German habitational name from any of the places called Leibn in Eastern Mecklenburg or Pomerania. So that means like maybe his family was from one of the few places that's called Leibn. That's a common thing with last names. Or it says Dutch from a pet form of the ancient Germanic personal name Liebrecht, composed of the elements of people, slash, tribe and bright. So his name could mean bright people or bright tribe, and Chris has covered himself in crazy colorful tattoos, used to dye his hair bright red, so maybe that name shined through accurately for him.

Mike Straus: 40:05

That is very interesting. That's the kind of stuff that I like, but it's just. I don't ever, for whatever reason, think to do that very much. I go different routes with stuff, but that's why it works. You know, what we do want to do is we want to tell everybody who is listening and who enjoys the podcast to go ahead and give us a five star review on whatever platform you are enjoying us on. It really does help. Also, follow us on all the social media platforms, whether it is Instagram or X, or even our Facebook page. Go like and follow, subscribe, do all that good stuff. We also have a Patreon. We don't have much on that yet, but as we get this ball rolling, we will be adding all kinds of crazy shit. We only get to handle so much at a time, guys.

Tom Higgins: 40:53

Right, we're a new podcast. We're getting it going. I'm technologically illiterate but with Mike's help, I'm picking it up. I'm learning. I struggled even get my microphone to work and everything like that, but we will get there.

Mike Straus: 41:08

The thing is, iphones suck. I hate iPhones, I hate Apple.

Tom Higgins: 41:13

To be honest with you, though, it's not just that phone, big fan of it either. I have no excuse because I've been having one for however many years. So we got the garden of Eden symbol of the Bitten Apple on our damn phone. The forbidden knowledge was Apple trying to represent to us.

Mike Straus: 41:32

Good point. Yeah, I never thought about the Bitten Apple logo, but there had to be so much thought that went into the logo. It wasn't happenstance, it wasn't by chance.

Tom Higgins: 41:42

It's symbolism will be the downfall and I'm always trying to look out for it and point it out We'll drive you nuts. We'll drive you nuts.